“If God
exists, why isn’t His existence as obvious as the physical world?”
This question popped up at Debunking Christianity as well as
Randal Rauser’s blog. This is a variation of the divine hiddenness argument.
What’s striking is how the answer is implicit in the
question. The very way in which the question is cast exposes a faulty premise.
God’s existence is not as obvious as the physical world
because God is not a physical object. So we shouldn’t expect God’s existence to
be obvious in that sense.
To take a comparison, even if I could explore every inch of
the physical world, I couldn’t find da Vinci or J. S. Bach. I can’t see da
Vinci. I can’t see J. S. Bach.
Why is that? Because they are part of the past. They don’t
occupy my timeframe.
However, that doesn’t mean there’s anything doubtful about
their existence. Their existence is evident in the art and music they left
behind. We also have some testimonial evidence. So I know they existed based on
trace evidence.
Years ago I saw da Vinci’s The Virgin and Child with Saint
Anne at the Louvre. I stood right in front of the painting, admiring Da Vinci’s
artistic genius.
Imagine a tourist standing next to me saying, “But where’s
da Vinci? I’ve been looking high and low for Da Vinci, but I can’t find him
anywhere. I guess he never existed!”
Well, you can’t find him in the here and now because he’s no
longer in the here and now. Likewise, if God subsists above time and space, you
can’t see him. But that doesn’t cast doubt on his existence. You just need to
know what to look for.
Hi Steve,
ReplyDeleteI don't know anybody who assumes the faulty premise you describe. I think when people typically raise questions of divine hiddenness it is set against the backdrop of a world that seems to have states of disvalue (e.g. suffering, evil) that are not what you would expect were the world produced by a maximally good God.
The faulty premise I describe is contained in the very statement I quoted.
DeleteMoreover, I got into a long drawn out debate years ago at The Secular Web over the divine hiddenness argument, so I know from firsthand experience how atheists construe the argument. They take the position that there are so many unbelievers due to insufficient evidence for God's existence, or evidence contrary to the existence of God. They then say that's inconsistent with God's universal saving will, posited by many Christians. If God really wanted to say everyone, he'd reveal himself so clearly that his existence would be unmistakable.
"“If God exists, why isn’t His existence as obvious as the physical world?”
ReplyDeleteThis question popped up at Debunking Christianity as well as Randal Rauser’s blog. This is a variation of the divine hiddenness argument.
What’s striking is how the answer is implicit in the question. The very way in which the question is cast exposes a faulty premise.
God’s existence is not as obvious as the physical world because God is not a physical object. So we shouldn’t expect God’s existence to be obvious in that sense."
Randal Rauser: "Hi Steve, I don't know anybody who assumes the faulty premise you describe."
I do.
P.S. Randall, have you read Steve's post regarding your Arminian arguments in:
Children of a Lesser God
I think God's existence is MORE obvious than the existence of the physical world. After all, it's a logical *possibility* that we are brains-in-a-vat and the physical world is a myth, but it's not logically possible that there are no grounds for logic in the first place.
ReplyDeleteSteve and Peter,
ReplyDeleteDid you see this one over at Randal's post HERE:
Things that keep [Arminian] Christian theists up at night:
...
The remote possibility that Calvinism might be true.
----
LOL!
I know exactly what you're talking about Steve. I know people who can look at the majesty of the Rocky Mountains and instead of seeing the artistry of God displayed at every glance, instead they can work themselves into a foaming state of abject hate as they turn their back on what God has done and concentrate exclusively on what someone with a chain saw MIGHT do. They'll look at the states of disvalue man has caused by his rejection of God and then in the same breath blame his own sins on God.
ReplyDeleteA quote that's compatible with most forms of Calvinism
ReplyDeleteWilling to appear openly to those who seek him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from him with all their heart, God so regulates the knowledge of himself that he has given indications of himself which are visible to those who seek him and not to those who do not seek him. There is enough light for those to see who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition. - Blaise Pascal
More similar quotes HERE
Annoyed Pinoy, In an earlier thread you stated “…ministers of the Gospel should ‘heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out demons’. The Lord Jesus set the example and He is our model that we ought to strive for even if we fail.”
ReplyDeleteIf that is the case, shouldn’t we expect God to be more visible through the working of the Church?
shiny, I would agree with that conclusion. However, God has ordained that the manifestation of the charismatic gifts usually be in proportion to the measure of faith the people of God have in such and such time and place. We have a duty to grow in our faith for the miraculous. As a Calvinist, I believe that that growth is itself also in God's sovereign hand. I do believe that some ministers of the Gospel do consistently operating in the miraculous.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, that doesn't mean that those ministers who aren't operating in the miraculous are necessarily failing to fulfill their calling. IMO many Reformed ministers operate in the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit even though they aren't doing so in the miraculous. John the Baptist was the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. Even greater than Moses and Elijah. Yet, John the Baptist probably never performed a miracle. Therefore, being a faithful spirit-filled minister ought not to be measured by how many miracles one performs.
I believe in the Word and the Spirit and that the Reformational branch of the church has focused on the Word to great effectiveness. Just as some Charismatics and Pentecostals have focused on the Spirit. I also believe that there's a convergence going on between the two traditional streams in our generation. This can be see in ministries like John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Matt Slick, Vincent Cheung, James K. A. Smith, Johanes Lilik Susanto, and Sam Storms. Sam Storms has actually written a book titled Convergence: Spiritual Journeys of a Charismatic Calvinist
Annoyed Pinoy,
ReplyDeleteTwo asides:
(1) Did you read the blog post exchanges between Sam Storms and C. Michael Patton at the Parchment and Pen blog regarding charismaticism?
(2) Did you see the ending of the Marquez-Pacquiao IV fight?
1. No, is there a link?
ReplyDelete2. Yes I did and I'm SOOO disappointed. Pacquiao was winning on all the punch stats (including the power punches) up until Marquez knocked him out. Pacquiao got over confident and careless and walked into Marquez's punch (an amateur mistake). Oh well. I just hope Pacquiao stays physically and mentally strong enough to make a difference in the Philippines after he retires. That's where he can do the greatest good.
Hi Pinoy,
ReplyDeleteI found this:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/05/why-i-am-not-charismatic-complete-2/
But do know that Sam Storms posted replies to each of these as well. You'll have to google-search the archives.
P.S. I was rooting for Manny too. What happened to Manny was what I was hoping Manny would do to Floyd Mayweather. If they ever fight.
I read Why I am Not Charismatic by C Michael Patton
DeleteHere's a link to Sam Storms' response:
Why I Am/Not Charistmatic: History of the Gifts Response – Sam Storms www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2011/12/why-i-amnot-charistmatic-history-of-the-gifts-response-sam-storms/
Thanks for the link.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you with Manny knocking out Mayweather. But Floyd is just too good. Mayweather will do the same thing with Manny as he did with Marquez. The technical fighter usually has the advantage against a brawler and Mayweather is *The* Technician (even if a boring one to watch).
[[However, God has ordained that the manifestation of the charismatic gifts usually be in proportion to the measure of faith the people of God have in such and such time and place.]]
ReplyDeleteSo the reason we don't see a single American raised from the dead (that I am aware of... and I suspect it might make the news) is because not a single American has enough faith. Am I understanding you correctly?
Recall the quote I gave. God regulates the knowledge of (and evidence for) Himself for His sovereign and wise purposes. God has always made the knowledge of His existence rationally coercive to the angelic realm (and for the saints who have already made it to heaven). However, in human history God sometimes does so and sometimes He doesn't in order to providentially direct redemptive history a certain way. This is related to the doctrine of Divine Hiddenness. Some of the purposes why He regulates it include the following: 1. That God might be respected and willingly accepted. W.L. Craig was once asked why God didn't make His existence absolutely clear. For example, why doesn't He write something like "Jesus Is My Son - Sincerely, God" in the night sky using stars. Craig rightly said, "Indeed, I could well imagine that in such a world, after a while, people would begin to chafe under such brazen advertisements of their Creator. And in time, eventually come to resent His effrontery for such brazen advertisements of His existence" (paraphrase); 2. Soul-making and developing purposes. This is related to theodicy and the PoE (problem of evil). 3. That those who want and sincerely seek God might have the evidence they need, and that those who really don't want to know God might not. 4. As a punishment for sin (e.g. Matt. 16:4). 5. In order that only His elect are saved. Ultimately evidence or lack thereof, faith or lack thereof, desire for God or lack thereof, human willingness or unwillingness are all granted or withheld by God's Sovereignty and are not ultimately in the power of human beings to have or exercise. See a further explanation in my comments at Steve's blog HERE. See more quote from Pascal as it relates to election and reprobation HERE.
DeleteNow to your question. You have to make a distinction between what God has done and what God has allowed to be documented (and in what way/degree). For example, there were times when Jesus wanted His miracles to have greater publicity and other times when He DID NOT want them to be publicly revealed(Luke 5:14; see especially the resurrection of Jairus' daughter Luke 8:56). Yes, part of the reason there aren't more resurrections in America is because American Christians often don't have the faith for them (see my more elaborate comments on this topic in the blog links gathered HERE). But again, that's by God's sovereign design too. Also, I do believe there have been resurrections on American soil. They just aren't publicized and documented in the way most people would like. Here's an example Video Part 1; and Video Part 2. Here's another version of the Same Incident. The reason I hold these positions is because I'm both a Calvinist and a charismatic/continuationist and this is the way I've personally synthesized both theologies (other Calvinistic continuationists have synthesized them differently).
DeleteIn the list above I wrote for #2 "Soul-making and developing purposes."
DeleteI meant to write "Soul-making and [VIRTUE] developing purposes." As I said HERE, "...[In order to] provide opportunity for greater reward for His human believers who persevere in faith, obedience and faithfulness even when there are times when God's existence is in doubt; or when while His existence is believed, yet His seeming indifference seems to be more the case. Since, there is a kind of faith (or faithfulness) that believes and perseveres despite adversity (including challenges to belief in God's existence and/or trust in God's goodness). This would include making room for the opportunities of performing acts of charity, mercy and kindness like giving of one's possessions/wealth and taking care of the sick etc.
Include in that last list opportunities for missions, evangelism, apologetics etc.
DeleteLet me add one more thing in answer to your question, since you may not read any more of my comments on those other blogs. Above I said "Yes, part of the reason there aren't more resurrections in America...[was for a lack of faith]". That does NOT mean however that God will only work in the presence of great faith. Sometimes God performs miracles in the presence of weak or non-existent faith precisely because He is Sovereign and/or out of sheer mercy/grace.
DeleteHowever, that's not God's usual or preferred or endorsed method. See James 4:2; Acts 3:16; Matt. 17:19-20; James 5:14-15; Mark 9:23; Acts 14:9-10; Matt. 21:21-22; Mark 11:22-24; Luke 17:5-6; John 14:12-14; 1 Cor. 13:2 etc.
shiny, i have to be away from my computer for now. I'll answer you past midnight Eastern Standard Time. Till then, you can post anymore comments or questions. :-)
ReplyDelete