A quick observation about the Petraeus scandal, which has
also engulfed another top general (John Allen). You don’t get to where they are
without being fanatically ambitious and ruthlessly single-minded. You don’t get
to where they are by making your family a priority. At best, the wife and kids
will be a distant second.
In that respect, their infidelity is hardly surprising.
They never were devoted family men.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteI found this blog recently, and have enjoyed some of the stuff you guys have written.
Had a question about politics prompted by your post and other comments I've read recently on this blog. Do you think a Christian can be say President of the US? I am not asking whether it is logically possible or biblically allowable, I think the answer is yes to both of those. I mean, is it really humanly feasible for a Christian to aspire at those type of high ranks?
My conclusion as of late has been no, and your post reminded me of that. I cannot fathom how can a person be a real Christian, remain uncompromising, and attain to some high rank like either General or President. And the Bible tends to confirm that ("God chose the lowly of world to shame the wise"... "the foolishness of God is higher than the wisdom of man").
I would go a step further and caution any Christian against trying to get to those positions, not because it is automatically a sin, but for the reasons given above. Kind of like what is wiser, choosing the greener pastures Lot chose with all the evil in Sodom, or the pastures Abraham chose?
What do you think?
Perhaps I should clarify something of what I posted.
ReplyDeleteMy point was can a Christian remain uncompromising, as much as believer can do under common circumstances, and still pursue those type of careers, in the historical context of today? I am not talking about examples in the distant past, but rather in today's context. And while I have my doubts, I guess it is possible some recent Presidents were real Christians. The question is, did that type of career inevitably led them to sinful compromise?
You’re asking more than one potential question. Or addressing a different issue than the issue in the post.
DeleteThe point of my post wasn’t that you have to take morally compromising positions to become a top general, but that you have to neglect your family to rise to the top of the heap.
So one question is whether a president has to neglect his family to run for office or govern. Is campaigning or governing so time-consuming that his family inevitably takes a distant second place?
I think that varies with the individual. One path to the presidency is to become a governor, then run for president. For instance, I don’t think Bush 43 had to spend that much time running for president. He jumped into the race. It was a pretty quick transition from TX govern to presidential hopeful to presidential nominee to the election.
By contrast, Romney took several years out of his life to run full-time for the presidency. Running twice. Nonstop. All-consuming.
Also, governors can have more a family life. They live in one place (the governor’s mansion).
Another path is to run as a sitting senator. Serving in Congress takes more toll on your family life. It’s a hectic schedule, and you commute back and forth between DC and your home state.
Another factor is whether a man waits until he has grown children before he runs for high office. Of course, that may still involve neglecting his wife.
Mind you, some wives are just as politically ambitious as their husbands. They like the prestige of being First Lady.
Another question is how busy a president is. What are his work hours? How long is his workday?
Obviously, the presidency isn’t a 9-5, Mon-Friday job. He has to make presidential decisions every day. And he has to be on call 24/7 in case of some national security crisis or natural disaster.
But that aside, a president has a lot of control over his schedule. It depends on how much he’s prepared to delegate.
Nixon and LBJ were workaholics, but Eisenhower and Coolidge were coasting to some degree.
Of course, the pace of life was different in Coolidge’s day, when you didn’t have so much real-time information bombarding you.
The other question is whether a Christian candidate has to take morally compromising positions to get elected. It’s entirely possible that a Christian candidate who doesn’t duck tough questions will be unelectable.
On the other hand, a lot depends on the national mood during any given election cycle.
I hope I'm not butting into the conversation? If so, please feel free to ignore what I have to say.
ReplyDelete1. I suppose it depends in part on a person's God-given talent or aptitude as well as personality. For example, many people need a good amount of sleep each day to be able to function at full mental and physical capacity. Say something like 8 hours per night. However, there are some people who can function at full capacity with as little as 4 or 5 hours per night.
Or some people may find meeting and greeting people each day to be demanding, whereas others may thrive in meeting people. Some may feel like they're one of those power tools that needs to be recharged for 10 hours after only an hour's worth of use, whereas others may actually feel re-energized when they interact with tons of people each day.
2. Also, a lot can be decided in our day to day lives. If we are faithful in the little things, then it's more likely we'll be faithful in the bigger things than if we are unfaithful in the little things. Deo volente, God may entrust us with greater things including the opportunities to become a politician and perhaps even the POTUS. Of course, there is no obligation whatsoever for God to grant we enter into politics (or whatever field we desire). But I'm just trying to say since if we are faithful in the little things, it's more likely we'll be faithful in the big things, then if God does so choose to give us the opportunity to serve others in politics, we will more likely be faithful even in serving others in politics. However, if we are unfaithful in the little things, then, if we did become a politician, I doubt we'd start being faithful as a politician. And our unfaithful daily decisions as a politician could then have a far greater impact for the worse in the lives of others.
3. Abraham Kuyper was a Dutch prime minister. I don't know enough to know if this was good or bad for him spiritually. Not to mention for the Dutch.
4. Other vocations can also be demanding on many similar levels. Other vocations can be spiritually taxing. I highly recommended this sermon by Martyn Lloyd-Jones titled "The Making and Breaking of a Medical Registrar: A Study of Stress." By the way, a registrar is the British term for what we Americans call resident. In other words, we can think of a registrar aka resident as a young junior doctor training to become a specialist doctor, training to become a full-fledged consulting (British term) or attending (American term) physician. Say a pediatrician training to become a pediatrician and pediatric cardiologist, to take one example among scores of examples.
Thanks for both of your comments! Interesting stuff.
ReplyDelete@steve
>> The point of my post wasn’t that you have to take morally compromising positions to become a top general, but that you have to neglect your family to rise to the top of the heap.
Isn't neglecting your family already a sin in and of itself, and hence a morally compromising position? Seems like a good and necessary consequence from several biblical commands, such as to teach the law to your kids "when you rise up, when you are on your way, when you lie down", or "he who does not provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever".
>> It’s entirely possible that a Christian candidate who doesn’t duck tough questions will be unelectable.
Yes, that was definitely part of my point. But there are more things than just that. Say for example, the National Day of Prayer, when President Bush had people from all sorts of religion praying. Should a Christian ever pray with people who are praying to idols? I once did something stupid like that, and I have come to regret it, even though I was praying to the Lord. I don't think a Christian should ever do that. The Lord is a jealous God.
@rockingwithhawking
>> I hope I'm not butting into the conversation?
Nope. It is a public blog and I expected (wanted) other people to comment. And I don't know Steve personally.
>> However, there are some people who can function at full capacity with as little as 4 or 5 hours per night.
True, there are some. I think Calvin, and Napoleon, were like that.
>> if God does so choose to give us the opportunity to serve others in politics, we will more likely be faithful even in serving others in politics
Assuming one could be faithful and still achieve that post. My comment was more along the lines that it may not be possible to be that faithful and get there. My next comment will hopefully make that more clear.
>> Other vocations can also be demanding on many similar levels.
Absolutely, and this goes back to what I've been thinking about. I chose the example of Lot and Abraham purposefully.
I am a software engineer. Assuming I have what it takes, which I may not, I could have attempted to choose a career in Sylicon Valley and try to get high up in the corporate ladder (on the technical side, I am not a manager). But at what cost? You are going to be expected to be a workaholic, and maybe do other things, that would put your spiritual life at risk. I doubt it is possible to get there without spiritually compromising (either time to your family, moral stances, or something else). The job itself is not sinful, but what is required to get the job, and to stay at the job, often is.
What prompted my comments are the following statements from Steve's original post:
"You don’t get to where they are without being fanatically ambitious and ruthlessly single-minded. You don’t get to where they are by making your family a priority."
When we teach our kids to choose careers, do we tell them "be all you can be"? What if "be all you can be" can lead them to a job where they cannot get there except by neglecting their family? The apostle Paul said "Everything is lawful, but not everything is profitable". Just because the job is lawful, it doesn't mean is a type of job for a Christian.
I don't mean to take a hard stand against say a Christian trying to be POTUS. But I do think there a jobs that Christians may want to think twice before attempting.
Does that make sense? At any rate, thanks for your comments, and for your blog.
Nick
Delete"Isn't neglecting your family already a sin in and of itself, and hence a morally compromising position?"
But a presidential candidate doesn't necessarily have to make the same sacrifices as an ambitious military officer.
"But there are more things than just that. Say for example, the National Day of Prayer, when President Bush had people from all sorts of religion praying. Should a Christian ever pray with people who are praying to idols? I once did something stupid like that, and I have come to regret it, even though I was praying to the Lord. I don't think a Christian should ever do that. The Lord is a jealous God."
True. But a president doesn't have to do that. His election or reelection doesn't depend on that.
Steve, I agree, to a degree. It is certainly not in the job description of a President to have to do those things. But I think it is often expected, and a Christian who tried to follow a "hard" (but biblical) line would likely not ever get elected (I think you kind of agree with that from your previous comments).
DeleteNow, I do find this comment curious:
>> But a presidential candidate doesn't necessarily have to make the same sacrifices as an ambitious military officer.
I will say upfront I don't know anything about military or political careers. But it seems to me you are suggesting that it is less likely a Christian can be a General than a POTUS, right? If so, how do you arrive at that conclusion? I would have guessed the opposite...
I didn't just say a general. I said a "top general." Look at the CV of Petraeus at the DOD:
ReplyDeletehttp://web.archive.org/web/20110228183126/http://www.defense.gov/bios/biographydetail.aspx?biographyid=166
That's all-consuming. And that just hits the high points.
Bush 43 didn't have to do nearly that much to get elected POTUS.
I could be wrong, and I'd appreciate correction of course, but here's how I see it:
ReplyDelete1. Generally speaking, we should prioritize stuff like communion with God (e.g. cultivating a prayer life, regularly meditating on his word) and family above work. Let alone working to acquire far more wealth than is needed (e.g. Prov 30:7-9).
2. Likewise we should do what's right even if it costs us (e.g. Prov 15:16-17, 16:8, 17:1).
3. However, there's also a theology of work. We can and should glorify God in our work. For example, check out Work Matters: Connecting Sunday Worship to Monday Work by Tom Nelson.
4. Prov 23:4 puts it like this: "Do not toil to acquire wealth; be discerning enough to desist." But how this plays out in the life of one Christian vs. another Christian could be quite different.
Take D.A. Carson vs. someone like me.
I remember Carson saying he feels pretty refreshed sleeping only a few hours per night. Something like 4-5 hours if I recall correctly. He doesn't need more sleep.
Not to mention he has way more talents and in so many different areas than most Christians do including a nobody like me.
I take it he has a family to take care of.
He seems like he's constantly preaching and teaching around the world. I've downloaded and listened to a lot of his sermons over the years. In one year, I think he traveled to like Chicago, NYC, the UK, France, Singapore, Australia, and Canada. Or so it seemed, but I wasn't particularly closely tracking him or anything. In any case he seems like he's constantly jetting around the world.
Plus he's a seminary prof in charge of teaching students.
And he seems to churn out books and articles fairly regularly.
In the past, Carson has said he was diagnosed with a potentially debilitating disease, but I guess it turned out fine. Likewise he has talked about his wife having had cancer and their struggles with that.
Granted, a person has different seasons in life. It could be Carson's kids are all grown up so he doesn't need to take care of them as much as say he would've had to take care of them were they children or teenagers. It could be he has taught seminary students for so long that it's not too hard for him to come up with what to teach them or grade papers or whatever.
But it could also be he's at a point in life where a lot of his friends or family members have the diseases and afflictions of older people. Or perhaps some are close to passing away or have passed away.
Anyway, despite his pace and life and so forth, Carson is super productive, and all for the glory of God and the good of his people, whereas I would find it extremely taxing to say the least if I had to live like Carson lives!
For instance I need 6-7 hours of sleep per night to feel refreshed. I'm a med student, but I can't really study more than one thing at a time. There are things going on in my life right now which are already making me feel pretty overwhelmed, but they're nothing like what Carson goes thru.
So I think we have to know ourselves. Know our talents. Know our limitations. Know how much is not enough for us. But also know how much is too much for us to handle. These could change depending on the season of life we're in. But all this takes time, experience, knowledge of God, knowledge of his word, and so forth.
I certainly don't have it all down. Not by any stretch. But I keep trying.