Mike Brown is pastor of Christ URC Church in San Diego and was one of the individuals who was present early on in discussions when Jason Stellman first started talking with Roman Catholics. He posted a link to Carl Trueman’s article on Facebook, along with this brief comment.
Mr.Bugay offered from the very cheap seats, I would agree I am not even in the ballpark. Many of us have struggled with some of the issues Mr. Stellman struggle with, personally I would rather burn in hell than migrate to Rome, not because of their theology but because of the way the tall hat crowd treated the "least of these" in the many abuse cases. All the theology rhetoric can rot no matter what communion when it comes to abuse of children.
I spent a great deal of time reading your responses to Mr. Stellman because I really do care about such issues, though in my "Christian experience" I was informed that I did not. I responded to it differently then Mr. Stellman, I chose to leave, because I would rather burn in hell then cause another person to stumble. I can loose my own soul but would loath to cost another their soul. This pathetic idea I struggle with was used quite effectively when I struggled. So I kept quiet and walked away as to avoid causing someone else to loose faith.
Now I will be honest, you and me are as far as two people can be on a theological point of view, but I do understand your concern and passion. I do not think you would understand mine but I could be, and often am wrong. I struggle with many issues concerning the Christian religion, I keep those concerns under wraps as to avoid damaging other people's faith but to also not to be blasted. I will admit to being thinned skinned. I really take this faith stuff seriously and it hurts to be called things like apostate, liar, vile piece of human filth, apostate, Satan's spawn, God hater, etc.
Personally I cant relate to Mr. Stellman's situation as I would rather burn at the stake then actually cause a fuss in the faith community. Something I learned early on in my Christian Career. I may not understand your situation and admit it, but it tortures me that those I see as a spiritual family cant even see mine. I mean you people at triablogue never deal nor struggle with any doubt what so ever, you really have it all down pat. I dont say that as an insult I admire that even envy it. I often struggle with doubt, but I keep it quiet to avoid hurting others.
I am very glad your wife is doing better, I have lost several family members that I took care of to cancer. It is an awful disease that I hope someday we will find a cure for. I buried a sister an aunt and I cant count how many others to this disease. It is hard to be a caregiver, I understand such events should have no meaning what so ever in the Christian experience but they do. All that aside I pray for her total healing, I actually pray that for all people. I offer this for what very little it may be worth.
Trust me I wish I could live in your universe, I really do.
Brian, I am not sure from this comment exactly what your theological position is, but I certainly have no intention of "blasting" you, nor will I call you "things like apostate, liar, vile piece of human filth, apostate, Satan's spawn, God hater, etc." (Note that I have not even called Jason Stellman an "apostate", much less any of the other terms).
I don't know that Jason is motivated by "not causing a fuss". If you don't want to "cause a fuss," you don't start a blog, you don't write books, you don't take a position in public, much less a controversial one. He has done all of these things: started a blog on a controversial topic, written books, and now, he has very publicly admitted he is changing theological affiliations between what may be regarded as two camps that are very much opposed to each other. He is a public person, and he has invited public controversy. The assumption on my part is that it is better to discuss these things in public, rather than just let them fester away quietly.
With that said, I can assure you that I do struggle with doubt, although I try not to do it in public. And I don't "have it all down pat". Though I do make every effort to think through the positions that I take, and to have rational and Scriptural justifications for them.
You talk about many evils and ills in the world, such as "abuse of children" and cancer. We really all live in the same universe. Aside from having lost folks to cancer, which is really something that is common to all of us, I don't really know what other issues you are facing. But our "job" here is think through some of the hardest issues of the day, to take positions, and to provide rational and Scriptural justifications for them.
Why do you continue to lie about your approach to Jason? You admitted earlier today (yesterday by calendar time) that you did call Jason a liar (but only after it was proven by people citing your exact words). You also do call people apostate that don't agree with your beliefs. I'm not going to bother to go find the posts, but they're out there for all to see.
Then you say that "it is better to discuss these things in public, rather than just let them fester away quietly" right before saying that you try not to allow your struggles with doubt to be public. Umm... have you not vehemently insisted that Jason should have come out with his doubts, publicly, as soon as he started having them? Even when it was stated that he was talking with people about it way back then and that it wasn't private, that wasn't enough for you. He should have been VERY public about his doubts, long before deciding if he actually believed any of those things. Your discourse is vastly inconsistent, which is it that you believe to be right?
Personally, I'd probably respect your opinions more if you did talk about doubts and such publicly. It takes a level of humility, which so far I've not seen from you. That humility would give me more reason to respect what you have to say about others. I imagine signs of humility and respect from you would incite similar reactions from other readers as well.
Brian, I encourage you to seek out the truth behind the things that John and many others like him are saying. But if you are sensitive, avoid these particular men like the plague. They will be the worst enemy of the truth in the way they present it. Seek out the writing of men like R.C. Sproul, Oz Guiness, and Ravi Zacharias, who speak the truth (in at least most cases the same truth John speaks) boldly, but manage to do so in a way that is respectful and loving to their audience. Interesting, those guys have been far more successful in getting their message out there as a result...
Mr.Bugay offered from the very cheap seats, I would agree I am not even in the ballpark. Many of us have struggled with some of the issues Mr. Stellman struggle with, personally I would rather burn in hell than migrate to Rome, not because of their theology but because of the way the tall hat crowd treated the "least of these" in the many abuse cases. All the theology rhetoric can rot no matter what communion when it comes to abuse of children.
ReplyDeleteI spent a great deal of time reading your responses to Mr. Stellman because I really do care about such issues, though in my "Christian experience" I was informed that I did not. I responded to it differently then Mr. Stellman, I chose to leave, because I would rather burn in hell then cause another person to stumble. I can loose my own soul but would loath to cost another their soul. This pathetic idea I struggle with was used quite effectively when I struggled. So I kept quiet and walked away as to avoid causing someone else to loose faith.
Now I will be honest, you and me are as far as two people can be on a theological point of view, but I do understand your concern and passion. I do not think you would understand mine but I could be, and often am wrong. I struggle with many issues concerning the Christian religion, I keep those concerns under wraps as to avoid damaging other people's faith but to also not to be blasted. I will admit to being thinned skinned. I really take this faith stuff seriously and it hurts to be called things like apostate, liar, vile piece of human filth, apostate, Satan's spawn, God hater, etc.
Personally I cant relate to Mr. Stellman's situation as I would rather burn at the stake then actually cause a fuss in the faith community. Something I learned early on in my Christian Career. I may not understand your situation and admit it, but it tortures me that those I see as a spiritual family cant even see mine. I mean you people at triablogue never deal nor struggle with any doubt what so ever, you really have it all down pat. I dont say that as an insult I admire that even envy it. I often struggle with doubt, but I keep it quiet to avoid hurting others.
I am very glad your wife is doing better, I have lost several family members that I took care of to cancer. It is an awful disease that I hope someday we will find a cure for. I buried a sister an aunt and I cant count how many others to this disease. It is hard to be a caregiver, I understand such events should have no meaning what so ever in the Christian experience but they do. All that aside I pray for her total healing, I actually pray that for all people. I offer this for what very little it may be worth.
Trust me I wish I could live in your universe, I really do.
Brian, I am not sure from this comment exactly what your theological position is, but I certainly have no intention of "blasting" you, nor will I call you "things like apostate, liar, vile piece of human filth, apostate, Satan's spawn, God hater, etc." (Note that I have not even called Jason Stellman an "apostate", much less any of the other terms).
ReplyDeleteI don't know that Jason is motivated by "not causing a fuss". If you don't want to "cause a fuss," you don't start a blog, you don't write books, you don't take a position in public, much less a controversial one. He has done all of these things: started a blog on a controversial topic, written books, and now, he has very publicly admitted he is changing theological affiliations between what may be regarded as two camps that are very much opposed to each other. He is a public person, and he has invited public controversy. The assumption on my part is that it is better to discuss these things in public, rather than just let them fester away quietly.
With that said, I can assure you that I do struggle with doubt, although I try not to do it in public. And I don't "have it all down pat". Though I do make every effort to think through the positions that I take, and to have rational and Scriptural justifications for them.
You talk about many evils and ills in the world, such as "abuse of children" and cancer. We really all live in the same universe. Aside from having lost folks to cancer, which is really something that is common to all of us, I don't really know what other issues you are facing. But our "job" here is think through some of the hardest issues of the day, to take positions, and to provide rational and Scriptural justifications for them.
John,
ReplyDeleteWhy do you continue to lie about your approach to Jason? You admitted earlier today (yesterday by calendar time) that you did call Jason a liar (but only after it was proven by people citing your exact words). You also do call people apostate that don't agree with your beliefs. I'm not going to bother to go find the posts, but they're out there for all to see.
Then you say that "it is better to discuss these things in public, rather than just let them fester away quietly" right before saying that you try not to allow your struggles with doubt to be public. Umm... have you not vehemently insisted that Jason should have come out with his doubts, publicly, as soon as he started having them? Even when it was stated that he was talking with people about it way back then and that it wasn't private, that wasn't enough for you. He should have been VERY public about his doubts, long before deciding if he actually believed any of those things. Your discourse is vastly inconsistent, which is it that you believe to be right?
Personally, I'd probably respect your opinions more if you did talk about doubts and such publicly. It takes a level of humility, which so far I've not seen from you. That humility would give me more reason to respect what you have to say about others. I imagine signs of humility and respect from you would incite similar reactions from other readers as well.
Brian, I encourage you to seek out the truth behind the things that John and many others like him are saying. But if you are sensitive, avoid these particular men like the plague. They will be the worst enemy of the truth in the way they present it. Seek out the writing of men like R.C. Sproul, Oz Guiness, and Ravi Zacharias, who speak the truth (in at least most cases the same truth John speaks) boldly, but manage to do so in a way that is respectful and loving to their audience. Interesting, those guys have been far more successful in getting their message out there as a result...