According to Roger Olson:
God simply knows the future because it will happen; his knowing future free decisions and actions of creatures does not determine them. Rather that they will happen determines God’s knowing them because God has decided to open himself up to being affected by the world…Simple foreknowledge is simply future vision.
Perspectives on the Doctrine of God, 156-157.
I’ve already commented on some problems this creates for Arminianism:
i) But here’s yet another problem. Arminian theodicy has nailed its mast to the notion of divine permission. If God allows evil (rather than “causing” or decreeing evil), then that’s suppose to be exculpatory.
For reasons I’ve given on various occasions, I don’t think that gets the job done. But even if it did, you’re only in a position to permit what you’re in a position to prevent. You can’t permit the inevitable. You can’t allow the inexorable.
But if God knows what will happen just because it will happen, if that’s the source of his foreknowledge, then evil is thrust upon him. Stoic resignation in the face of ineluctable evil is his portion.
It's quite simple. God only created Adam and Eve and they were created good. He created them in His likeness and in His image. He did the best He could to replicate Himself being free and all.
ReplyDeleteThey sinned. Didn't have to but did. God is not to blame.
How you can state that God could have done otherwise (creating robots perhaps; but that wouldn't be anything in His likeness or image) or how He must make an immediate end to the evil introduced by Adam and Eve, is beyond any intelligence. God has been and is working to get humanity willfully back to Himself.
If God could force all to believe in Him then He is to blame if He doesn't.
You wrote, "...Arminian theology doesn’t allow God to cause or determine certain mental states in human beings, such as saving faith..."
ReplyDeleteIn Calvinist theology, does God cause or determine *all* mental states in human beings?
Holdon,
ReplyDeleteAre you claiming that in every possible world containing humans, humans sin? That there's no possible world in which humans freely refrain from sinning?
If so, that makes you a necessitarian.
BTW, I don't see you exegeting the imago Dei.
TIDE SAID:
ReplyDelete"In Calvinist theology, does God cause or determine *all* mental states in human beings?"
In biblical Calvinism, God predestines every event. That includes mental events.
I saw a dead sparrow on the road yesterday with my grandson Matt. It was sad to see this freshly killed bird. I told Matt, God was the author of this bird's death. God allowed this bird to die, and sovereignty called for the bird to die when it did.
ReplyDeleteAnd this is a sparrow; one of trillions, that Gos sovereignly allows to die when He sees fit.
How much more man, whom He loves with an affectionate love; a love that caused Him to give Jesus to us, and so we murdered Him, and this murder was God's will.
"Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,......truly in this city [Jerusalem] there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."-Peter, to the Jews who killed Jesus
"Are you claiming that in every possible world containing humans, humans sin?"
ReplyDeleteOf course not.
"That there's no possible world in which humans freely refrain from sinning?" But there is: "but then, not my will, but thine be done."
In which case you can't fall back on the freewill defense.
ReplyDeleteWhat "free will defense"?? Where have I spoken about that?
ReplyDeleteDonsands, respectfully, that's pretty much a sick thing to tell your grandson; it clearly maligns God's gracious and good character. What will you tell your grandson when he grows up to kill someone and tell you he did it because, as you taught him, "this murder was God's will"?
ReplyDeleteHOLDON SAID:
ReplyDelete"What 'free will defense'?? Where have I spoken about that?"
That's implicit in your first comment. I don't have time to waste on your incompetence.
Nelson,
ReplyDeleteWhat you presume to call "sick" and out of character with God's goodness is simply a paraphrase of Scripture, viz. Mt 10:29, Acts 2:23, 4:28. You need to forsake your make-believe idol-god for the God of the Bible.
Nelson said...
ReplyDeleteDonsands, respectfully, that's pretty much a sick thing to tell your grandson; it clearly maligns God's gracious and good character.
When I read this my mind went automatically to Matthew 10:29. I noticed that Steve cited it too.
Here's the passage:
"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father." (Matthew 10:29)
I'd also add...
"Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them." (Ps. 139:16 NASB)
and...
"Man’s days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed." (Job 14:5 NIV)
"The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts. He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor." (1 Samuel 2:6-8 ESV)
and...
"“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me;
I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." (Deut. 32:39 ESV)
and...
"My times are in your hand; rescue me from the hand of my enemies and from my persecutors!" (Ps. 31:15 ESV)
Concerning creatures a psalmist says about God...
"These all look to you,
to give them their food in due season. When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are filled with good things. When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die
and return to their dust." (Psalm 104:27-29 ESV)
The Bible clearly teaches that God is sovereign over the living and dying of every creature, including each individual human being.
Steve wrote:
ReplyDelete“In biblical Calvinism, God predestines every event. That includes mental events.”
I understand that there is a distinction between God predestining a mental event and God being the blameworthy cause of a mental event, but what causes a predestined mental event (that is determined or caused by God) to become a blameworthy evil mental event in a man?
"What will you tell your grandson when he grows up to kill someone and tell you he did it because, as you taught him, "this murder was God's will"?"
ReplyDeleteAre you a prophet Nelson?
I appreciate your chiming in Steve, and AP. Thanks for all the Scripture, which I bow my heart to by His grace.
And His grace and kindness is something that is impossible for us to know, unless we bow before His Holy Writ.
Thanks again. And Nelson you'd better answer the truth, and don't trust your own heart my friend.
Jonathan Edwards said, (about spiritual pride): "You had need to have the greatest watch imaginable with respect to this matter, and to cry most earnestly to the great Searcher of hearts: for he that trusts his own heart is a fool."
TIDE SAID:
ReplyDelete"I understand that there is a distinction between God predestining a mental event and God being the blameworthy cause of a mental event, but what causes a predestined mental event (that is determined or caused by God) to become a blameworthy evil mental event in a man?"
i) The evil intent of the human agent.
ii) It's also important to distinguish between biblical categories (e.g. predestination, hardening) and philosophical categories (e.g. causation, determination).
STEVE
ReplyDelete"That's implicit in your first comment. I don't have time to waste on your incompetence."
Strange attitude you're showing. But please don't waste your precious time. Of course I understand. Who wouldn't prefer the "yes men"?
My observation on "i" is expressed in this question: if God knew that people would sin before He created, why did He create a world in which both sin and LFW were possible? If God is all-powerful, could He not have created a world where every possible choice made by creatures with LFW (assuming that LFW is coherent) would be perfectly acceptable choices to Him? This hints back at Molinism, but shows that Molinism begs the question that God's middle knowledge is damage control. God could have prevented sin by creating differently.
ReplyDeleteHoldon: "He did the best He could to replicate Himself being free and all. They sinned. Didn't have to but did. God is not to blame. "
ReplyDeleteWell, He created them, didn't He? Not only did He create them, He also set the garden up like this:
1. God created them in His image (possibly implying similar desires, i.e. the desire to be like God)
2. Gave them a law (eat anything EXCEPT the fruit of that tree over there)
3. Made the forbidden tree pleasing to the senses
4. Put the forbidden tree in the middle of the garden (presumably where they would see it often)
5. "Allowed"/"put" (doesn't matter) the serpent into paradise
Seems to me that God could have changed any one of those parameters to give a "much better" outcome. So, as every one of my atheist friends says - God is certainly responsible for what happened.
"God has been and is working to get humanity willfully back to Himself."
So, at least tell me you are consistent and do not pray for the salvation of anyone. Or the safety of missionaries. Or any other multitude of things that would require God to influence our precious freedom. Please tell me you pray like this:
"God, I really wish it was in your power to save my brother, but I know that you value his freedom more than you value his eternal life. I know you have done everything possible to save him, but he still hates you. I really wish you could do something, but I understand that your efforts are just as lame as mine are. Anyway, thanks for listening. Hope you have a good day even though millions of people you created die each day and are cast into an eternal hell for no good reason at all. Oh, almost forgot the Amen."
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI see you're as deceived as Eve who listened too much to the devil. Is that the case with other Calvinists as well: they make up their own stories instead of listening to what God really said?
Because how is your suggestive reasoning different from Eve and the serpent:
1. "possibly implying similar desires, i.e. the desire to be like God". Because what did Man not have? Gen 1:26 "and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth."
2. or where is there a Law in Genesis: "Gave them a law". ->no word of it at all
3. or that the "forbidden" tree should not have been "pleasing to the senses". They were only told not to eat of it, touching and looking at was OK. Or you think God should have made it an ugly tree? Can He do that? See Gen 2:9 And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;
4. or confounding the position of the tree of life with that of the "forbidden" tree: "put the forbidden tree in the middle of the garden". See Gen 2:9
5. or that God should not have: "Allowed"/"put" (doesn't matter) the serpent into paradise". Gen 3:13,14 was the serpent punished for being there of for what he did?
There was no law, because there was no evil to restrain.
The "forbidden" tree was good and pleasant, like all that God created. The tree of life was in the middle. God doesn't tempt anyone to sin, or are you saying He did? James 1:13
Apparently some Calvinists can't assimilate these basic truths. React again when you've read and listened to God's inerrant Word.
*speechless*
ReplyDelete