Everyone knows that satire is the most extreme of all extremist extremes. It's like, what's the difference between the Muslim terrorists that took down the twin towers and this extremist satire? Nothing.
off topic, but I went over to your blog to find out what you were up to after running off with that Arminian girl:) and tried to leave a comment on a post there but it does not seem possible. It says to log in but there is nowhere to do so.
Anyway, I wanted to post a comment on the very interesting Bethsaida/Chorazin post about in Luke10 how Jesus could say they would have repented if the miracles had been done there - whether this necessarily cuts against total depravity:
I have thought about this before. I think it is probably more plausible that salvific repentance is in view. And so here is another (speculative) option:
We know that God can invest words/miracles with power such that they have spiritual affects on the recipients - God can regenerate totally depraved hearts through the power invested in His Word.
Lets say that the words/miracles Jesus spoke were invested with 5 units of regenerating power. And his Jewish hearers in Luke10 had totally depraved hearts that were so deeply wicked that they would resist anything up to 7 units of regenerating power, hence they did not repent at Jesus' words/miracles.
But then say the recipients in Chorazin and Bethsaida that Jesus referred to had hearts that although totally depraved, were only wicked enough to resist 4 units of regenerating power, hence Jesus' words/miracles which were invested with 5 units of regenerating power would have overcome their wickedness and regenerated their hearts - proving to be irresistible grace to them. As such, Jesus could say they would have repented had he spoke/worked those particular 5-unit miracles there.
What do you think?
I think an example of what Jesus is talking about is Acts 16:30 where the jailer is so affected in his soul by the supernatural earthquake and what happened that he cried out 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved'. Not all responded like this. Clearly the Holy Spirit invested power in the supernatural events that caused his heart to be regenerated. Again, perhaps others' hearts were even more hardened than his such that they were not overcome by the regenerating power God chose to invest in those supernatural events.
What do you think of that formulation? I know it is speculative (although there are lots of verses about the Word being invested with power as well as people being able to resist the Holy Spirit), but do you see any problems with it?
(p.s. I think the mode of the Spirit's operation, whether directly on the heart or mediated through supernatural phenomenon can be tidied up a bit).
It was extreme in the sense that the satire was pointedly anti-Islam. I felt that it was so blatant no explanation was necessary.
Do you honestly agree that Terry Jones was not responsible for the backlash after he burned the Koran? Of course the people who did the killing are murderers and at fault, but to completely absolve a lunatic like Terry Jones, who cares little for human life when the alternative will get him into the public spotlight, is ludicrous!
I don't think God has a problem with Terry Jones and his act. As for the victims who got their heads cut off, probably they shouldn't have been where they were trying to do good things for savages who routinely *return evil for good.*
You honestly don't think that God has a problem with Terry Jones and his act?
Sounds like you and I probably are not worshiping the same God.
I certainly hope that you are not serious with your statement...anyone who has read the words of Christ knows that the actions of Terry Jones break the very heart of God.
sorry, not wanting to derail this thread anymore, Chorazin&Bethsaida is meant to be Tyre/Sidon/Sodom in my above post.
Matt,
I don't think total depravity means every sinner is equally wicked because all could be more wicked than they currently are. Being dead in sins does not mean we all have the same hardness of heart. So it is not a stretch to say the Jews Jesus was speaking to had harder hearts that even Tyre/Sidon/Sodom from past times.
As for 'units of regenerating power', this is just a theoretical formulation about the mechanics of regeneration. Isn't it possible that God could invest different proclamations of his Word with varying degrees of anointing/power?
I would really like to continue this at Peter Pikes blog as it is very off-topic here but there is no option to do so.
Something that nags at me on this subject is the important thing is what is true and what is false. The Koran is false, the Bible is true. Muslims are in bondage to the Kingdom of Satan; called and regenerated Christians are no longer in bondage to the Kingdom of Satan.
As horrific as beheading is we had a tradition of burning people alive; equally or even more horrific. I don't say that moralistically or piously or in a way to equate things. There are actually differences there as well, but broadly speaking, the beheading is not the issue. What is false and what is true is the issue.
Hamilton asked: --- You honestly don't think that God has a problem with Terry Jones and his act? ---
Judges 6:25 --- That night the LORD said to him, "Take your father’s bull, and the second bull seven years old, and pull down the altar of Baal that your father has, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it ... ---
2 Kings 18:4 --- He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan). ---
2 Kings 23:4 --- And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest and the priests of the second order and the keepers of the threshold to bring out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels made for Baal, for Asherah, and for all the host of heaven. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron and carried their ashes to Bethel. ---
2 Chronicles 19:2-3 --- But Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the LORD. Nevertheless, some good is found in you, for you destroyed the Asherahs out of the land, and have set your heart to seek God." ---
I'm pretty sure God doesn't care that the Koran was burned.
Blogger's giving me fits right now and won't let me comment. Feel free to email me, though, and I'll be happy to discuss my Chorazin/Bethsaida post with you. My email address is a yahoo account with the username petedawg34 (because of spambots, I don't want to spell out the whole address).
So in other words, you are trying to express to me how little you understand about the bible, the context of the bible, the hebrew people, the old testament, Christianity, and Jesus? Because that is pretty much what I got from your post...
Alright, so that may have been a little harsh, but seriously! Try understanding a little bit about what you are quoting instead of just copying and pasting a bunch of scriptures that you appear to not understand.
Extreme conservatism at its best (worst?).
ReplyDeleteHow is it "extreme"?
ReplyDeleteDon't let it rankle you Peter.
ReplyDeletehamilton was just letting us know that he didn't have any issues with any of the specific claims, just a vague emotional response devoid of substance.
Everyone knows that satire is the most extreme of all extremist extremes. It's like, what's the difference between the Muslim terrorists that took down the twin towers and this extremist satire? Nothing.
ReplyDeleteHamilton demonstrates for us the parenthetical interrogative antonym at its best (worst?).
ReplyDeletePeter Pike,
ReplyDeleteoff topic, but I went over to your blog to find out what you were up to after running off with that Arminian girl:) and tried to leave a comment on a post there but it does not seem possible. It says to log in but there is nowhere to do so.
Anyway, I wanted to post a comment on the very interesting Bethsaida/Chorazin post about in Luke10 how Jesus could say they would have repented if the miracles had been done there - whether this necessarily cuts against total depravity:
I have thought about this before. I think it is probably more plausible that salvific repentance is in view. And so here is another (speculative) option:
We know that God can invest words/miracles with power such that they have spiritual affects on the recipients - God can regenerate totally depraved hearts through the power invested in His Word.
Lets say that the words/miracles Jesus spoke were invested with 5 units of regenerating power. And his Jewish hearers in Luke10 had totally depraved hearts that were so deeply wicked that they would resist anything up to 7 units of regenerating power, hence they did not repent at Jesus' words/miracles.
But then say the recipients in Chorazin and Bethsaida that Jesus referred to had hearts that although totally depraved, were only wicked enough to resist 4 units of regenerating power, hence Jesus' words/miracles which were invested with 5 units of regenerating power would have overcome their wickedness and regenerated their hearts - proving to be irresistible grace to them. As such, Jesus could say they would have repented had he spoke/worked those particular 5-unit miracles there.
What do you think?
I think an example of what Jesus is talking about is Acts 16:30 where the jailer is so affected in his soul by the supernatural earthquake and what happened that he cried out 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved'. Not all responded like this. Clearly the Holy Spirit invested power in the supernatural events that caused his heart to be regenerated. Again, perhaps others' hearts were even more hardened than his such that they were not overcome by the regenerating power God chose to invest in those supernatural events.
What do you think of that formulation? I know it is speculative (although there are lots of verses about the Word being invested with power as well as people being able to resist the Holy Spirit), but do you see any problems with it?
(p.s. I think the mode of the Spirit's operation, whether directly on the heart or mediated through supernatural phenomenon can be tidied up a bit).
It was extreme in the sense that the satire was pointedly anti-Islam. I felt that it was so blatant no explanation was necessary.
ReplyDeleteDo you honestly agree that Terry Jones was not responsible for the backlash after he burned the Koran? Of course the people who did the killing are murderers and at fault, but to completely absolve a lunatic like Terry Jones, who cares little for human life when the alternative will get him into the public spotlight, is ludicrous!
I'm not sure that the guy in the vid was all about absolution of anyone, so your question is a bit off base. Terry Jones didn't murder anyone.\
ReplyDeleteIf you were really a sharp guy, you'd ask if Terry Jone's behavior amounted to yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater.
I don't think God has a problem with Terry Jones and his act. As for the victims who got their heads cut off, probably they shouldn't have been where they were trying to do good things for savages who routinely *return evil for good.*
ReplyDeleteTalking about units of regenerating power is sort of odd.
ReplyDeleteYou're either dead in sin or alive in Christ. There aren't degrees of deadness.
You honestly don't think that God has a problem with Terry Jones and his act?
ReplyDeleteSounds like you and I probably are not worshiping the same God.
I certainly hope that you are not serious with your statement...anyone who has read the words of Christ knows that the actions of Terry Jones break the very heart of God.
HAMILTONMJ1983 SAID:
ReplyDeleteIt was extreme in the sense that the satire was pointedly anti-Islam. I felt that it was so blatant no explanation was necessary.
Was it "anti-Islam" or was it anti-extremist Islam and maybe it was only blatantly obvious to your extremist PC interpretation?
sorry, not wanting to derail this thread anymore, Chorazin&Bethsaida is meant to be Tyre/Sidon/Sodom in my above post.
ReplyDeleteMatt,
I don't think total depravity means every sinner is equally wicked because all could be more wicked than they currently are. Being dead in sins does not mean we all have the same hardness of heart. So it is not a stretch to say the Jews Jesus was speaking to had harder hearts that even Tyre/Sidon/Sodom from past times.
As for 'units of regenerating power', this is just a theoretical formulation about the mechanics of regeneration. Isn't it possible that God could invest different proclamations of his Word with varying degrees of anointing/power?
I would really like to continue this at Peter Pikes blog as it is very off-topic here but there is no option to do so.
The only thing I would change in my comment would be calling the head loppers savages. Being a savage would be a step up for them.
ReplyDeleteNot meaning to use different accounts. My phone is apparently not on the same page as my PC.
ReplyDeletehttp://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2011/04/12/moral_monsters_in_afghanistan_and_moral_idiocy_in_america/page/full/
ReplyDeleteSomething that nags at me on this subject is the important thing is what is true and what is false. The Koran is false, the Bible is true. Muslims are in bondage to the Kingdom of Satan; called and regenerated Christians are no longer in bondage to the Kingdom of Satan.
ReplyDeleteAs horrific as beheading is we had a tradition of burning people alive; equally or even more horrific. I don't say that moralistically or piously or in a way to equate things. There are actually differences there as well, but broadly speaking, the beheading is not the issue. What is false and what is true is the issue.
A side issue is the First Amendment as well.
Hamilton asked:
ReplyDelete---
You honestly don't think that God has a problem with Terry Jones and his act?
---
Judges 6:25
---
That night the LORD said to him, "Take your father’s bull, and the second bull seven years old, and pull down the altar of Baal that your father has, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it
...
---
2 Kings 18:4
---
He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan).
---
2 Kings 23:4
---
And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest and the priests of the second order and the keepers of the threshold to bring out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels made for Baal, for Asherah, and for all the host of heaven. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron and carried their ashes to Bethel.
---
2 Chronicles 19:2-3
---
But Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the LORD. Nevertheless, some good is found in you, for you destroyed the Asherahs out of the land, and have set your heart to seek God."
---
I'm pretty sure God doesn't care that the Koran was burned.
(On behalf of Peter Pike)
ReplyDeleteHalo,
Blogger's giving me fits right now and won't let me comment. Feel free to email me, though, and I'll be happy to discuss my Chorazin/Bethsaida post with you. My email address is a yahoo account with the username petedawg34 (because of spambots, I don't want to spell out the whole address).
====
Thanks :-)
Peter
Hamilton,
ReplyDeleteSee here.
Peter/Patrick,
ReplyDeletemany thanks,
Peter Pike,
ReplyDeleteSo in other words, you are trying to express to me how little you understand about the bible, the context of the bible, the hebrew people, the old testament, Christianity, and Jesus? Because that is pretty much what I got from your post...
Alright, so that may have been a little harsh, but seriously! Try understanding a little bit about what you are quoting instead of just copying and pasting a bunch of scriptures that you appear to not understand.
Matthew Hamilton