Victor Reppert said...
“What sense do you make of petitionary prayer on Calvinist assumptions? Wouldn't any petitionary prayer be an attempt to change a past state of affairs?”
http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2009/09/irresistible-grace-or-total-depravity.html#c4034284965302925368
1.Assuming, for the sake of argument, that it did entail changing the past, I’m not sure why Reppert rules that out. After all, there are philosophers and physicists who toy with retrocausation, time-travel, and backtracking counterfactuals.
Not that I myself subscribe to that.
2.It’s also not clear to me why he’s cast the question in terms of changing the past. If he’s alluding to predestination, then the decree is timeless. Strictly speaking, the decree doesn’t lie in the past.
Perhaps, though, he’s treating a timeless decree as functionally equivalent to an accidentally necessary past.
3.For discussion purposes, let’s assume they’re equivalent. Some philosophers of time distinguish between changing the past and affecting the past. Even if the past is unalterable, that doesn’t mean the past can’t be affected by the present.
In addition, if we apply the counterfactual theory of causation to this distinction, then there’s a perfectly coherent sense in which timebound supplicants could affect the past.
God has decreed that certain outcomes are contingent on answered prayers. And God has decreed the prayers. Therefore, answered prayers effect corresponding outcomes which wouldn’t otherwise obtain absent the predestined prayers.
"Therefore, answered prayers effect corresponding outcomes which wouldn’t otherwise obtain absent the predestined prayers."
ReplyDeleteWhat percentage of prayers prayed are answered in the affirmative, would you say?
For the prayers He decreed that He denies, I'm curious as to why He'd decree them, knowing He'd not answer them in a positive way.
JOHN SAID:
ReplyDelete"What percentage of prayers prayed are answered in the affirmative, would you say?"
I wouldn't say.
John said...
ReplyDelete"For the prayers He decreed that He denies, I'm curious as to why He'd decree them, knowing He'd not answer them in a positive way."
It teaches Christians patience and humility.
Sorry, repost due to typo.
ReplyDeleteIt teaches Christians patience and humility
Why would He need to teach us that when He wills our actions anyway? If we are lacking in patience and humility, then it is only because God decreed it from eternity past, eh?
;)
"Why would He need to teach us that when He wills our actions anyway?"
ReplyDeleteWho said God *needs* to teach us patience? Sanctification would include learning patience and humility. God desires and has decreed that His elect should be sanctified. Do the dots really need to be connected for you any further? Is it not obvious that God's decree to deny prayers is an aspect of sanctification?
Sheesh.
"If we are lacking in patience and humility, then it is only because God decreed it from eternity past, eh?"
So... what of it?
Steve, this reminds me of a related post of yours a while back. If I recall correctly, you gave the example of someone praying for a family member involved in an airplane crash who either has survived or hasn't survived. The one praying doesn't know if the the loved one is alive or not, but he can still pray for the person to live since he's not aware of whether he's praying contrary to God's decree (that the person would have died already). Since God is timeless, the person praying in time can still theoretically affect the past, even if the past cannot be changed. I found that post really interesting.
ReplyDeleteIt tempts me (heh) to pray that in the 1st or 2nd century someone would either preserve the autographs of the New Testament or at least apographs very close to the originals which would later be unearthed in our near future. I think that would make an interesting novel or short story too. I can imagine how an early Christian (or even the Apostle John) leaving a note along with the copies relaying how he received a vision from God saying these copies would be found at the specific date they actually were found. Say, exactly 65 years after the Israel becomes a nation again. Somehow, there would be irrefutable proof that the the finds are genuine and were undisturbed/contaminated. Besides, I've always wanted to know which textual variants were original in places like Rom. 5:1 ("Let us" or "we have"?); 1Tim. 3:16 ("he" or "God"?); Mark 1:41 (compassion or angry?); John 1:18 (Son or God?); 2Tim. 2:19 (Lord or Christ?); Rom. 14:10 (God or Christ?); 1Cor. 10:9 (Lord or Christ?); 1Cor. 15:47 (the Lord?).
Anyway, I thought I bookmarked that blog of yours, but I guess not. Now I'm having a difficult time finding it. The search feature on Triablogue does a very poor job. I tried to use the word "crash" or "plane" and it seems that the search feaure didn't search far enough into past blogs to recall it.
Which brings up another matter I've always wanted to say. There are SOOOOOOOO many great posts at Triablogue but are (for all intents and purposes) hidden because they are in past. That's why I can understand how people often complain when you say you've dealt with an issue they are just now bringing up. Often *I* KNOW you have dealt with it many times in the past (and thoroughly) because I've read it myself. But from their perspective, they probably think you're either lying/exagerrating, using that as an excuse not to address it now, or assume that you probably didn't deal with the issue thoroughly and so there'd be no use in actually hunting down those posts.
I wish one day someone would categorize past blogs in such a way that a search could be done by author, year, and subject. If I had the money I'd hire someone to do it because the blogs here are GOLD.
If ever:
1. we enter a new Dark Ages before the 2nd Advent (say an Islamic one), or
2. an Extinction Level Event occurs where we need to preserve the greatest works of literature, or
3. the internet is basically destroyed due to a nearby stellar EMP (heh),
I'd include all the posts at Triablogue as one of those things that need to be preserved for future generations (along with a copy of all the episodes of the Wile E. Coyote cartoon with that secondary character the Road Runner (heh))
BOSSMANHAM SAID:
ReplyDelete"Why would He need to teach us that when He wills our actions anyway? If we are lacking in patience and humility, then it is only because God decreed it from eternity past, eh?"
He uses the experience of unanswered prayer (among other things) to sanctify his people. He decreed that experience to produce that effect. Your objection is a false dichotomy.
And to add the obvious: Christians are commanded to engage in petitionary prayer, so we should do it. It's as simple as that - our job may or not be to tease out the philosophical ramifications of so doing, but our job IS to do it.
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly we ought to petition God because he commands us to do so, just as he commands us to evangelize, and this command is independent of any expectations we might have of the causal difference our evangelism makes.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, one motive for prayer might be that it will make a real difference.
I think Piper has something on this, however. Here it is.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1996/1505_Prayer_and_Predestination/
In a latter post Steve gave me the link I was looking for. I find it really interesting. Anyone else will too. Here's the link: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2009/04/praying-for-past.html
ReplyDeleteSteve, thanks for hunting it down for me. :-)