At Triablogue, we seek first and foremost to be understanding and compassionate towards all. We go so far as to ignore truth completely in order to make people feel warm and fuzzy about themselves. After all, what’s the point of going to heaven if you can’t enjoy it before you die? Yet many Arminians still think we are mean. This is rather unfortunate, as our intention is to be nice to everyone. Indeed, I wholly endeavor to become all things to all people (even girly men) if that is what it takes to keep people from saying I’m a big meanie. So this post is for our Arminian  May the table set before them become a snare; may it become retribution and a trap. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever. Pour out your wrath on them; let your fierce anger overtake them. May their place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in their tents. For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt. Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation. May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous. Psalm 69:22-28 May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership. May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow. May his children be wandering beggars; may they be driven from their ruined homes. May a creditor seize all he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor. May no one extend kindness to him or take pity on his fatherless children. May his descendants be cut off, their names blotted out from the next generation. May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD; may the sin of his mother never be blotted out. May their sins always remain before the LORD, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth. Psalm 109:8-15  Then the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the next morning—there were all the dead bodies! Isaiah 37:36 (this passage especially ought to be ignored if you believe the angel of the Lord is a Christophany) "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.” Matthew 23:13-15 Thankfully, if any mean Calvinists bring up any of those verses, you can always respond with: “But that’s how God feels about unbelievers.” This usually is enough to deflect any problems. Unfortunately, most Calvinists are not dumb enough to stop there. Instead, they will also quote the following passages you will do well to ignore:  When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Galatians 2:11 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Galatians 3:1  I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. Revelation 3:15-16 So we see that Paul attacked Peter in public, he called the church of Galatians foolish and bewitched, and JESUS had the audacity to criticize the church at Laodicea. This is obvious proof that Calvinists are part of the NIV conspiracy. Remember, God loves you. God is:  Not:  |
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ReplyDeleteTo all persecutors, both Calvinists and Arminians:
ReplyDelete10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
-2 Cor 12:10
We should mimic Christ, remembering that he came with BOTH grace and truth:
"...We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
-John 1:14
Of course our explanations should come with a spirit of honoring the truth, patience, and careful instruction for the purpose of letting the opponent come to an understanding and persuaded by the truth we are showing. Anything added to it that gets in the way of this purpose should trouble us:
"2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
-2 Tim 4:2-4
And if, out of anger or frustration we want to crumble the opponent, making it secondary (or irrelevant) to win them over to the truth...then you can always break their bones cuz thats painful.. LOL:
15 Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.
-Proverbs 25:15
PSAs for everyone! Yay. Thanks for the post.
Danggggit!!! I can't stand how cute and cuddly that teddy bear is!!!
ReplyDeleteIf you could only be believed.
ReplyDeleteMr. Pike beside that particular color being hard on these fifty year old astigmatic eyes that particular shade makes me a tad queasy while eating my lunch. Could you possibly choose another color next time say teal?
ReplyDeleteThe pink type is a very nice touch.
ReplyDeletePerhaps if you all could admit you own matching Triablogue fanny packs you could soften your image a bit?
It is definitely time for people (of more stripes than just the Arminian ones) to stop whining about getting beat up by the Triablogue team.
ReplyDeleteMen: man up a little.
But it is easy for me to say. So far, I haven't been targeted by the team. That's not a challenge, by the way. I'd be happy to keep the status quo as it is.
-Turretinfan
turretinfan, hehe. well, in all fairness to our arminian brothers AND SISTERS (hee hee). triablogue sometimes beats up phantoms... of course, so do the arminians...and catholics, and mormons... and atheists.
ReplyDeletei like pink.
Well, I do have to confess....
ReplyDeleteI was sitting at home last night torturing small kittens when I realized that I was doing it because I was so upset that J.C. Daux Daux's initials stood for "John Calvin", which frankly is just plain evil, and that's when I realized that perhaps Lord Kalvon wouldn't be pleased with my efforts on his behalf. Perhaps he requires more than animal sacrifices.
And then I realized the guy next door was playing the music by Hanson, and the MMMMMM-Bop! got right to my heart. I started to cry. I couldn't help it.
The kitten scratched me so I threw it out the window. He landed feet first, but the Doberman still got him, and that really made me feel bad.
I cried all night long and well into the morning. I couldn't take it anymore, so I even called my attack gnome off from terrorizing Catholic children in Argentina.
That's when I realized that pink was a good color. In fact, I inspired a woman to dye her dog pink. It cost her $1000.00 in fines, which I felt bad about, but which I blame Bush for so I do feel better.
I have now rejected Lord Kelvon completely. I have decided to support Ian instead, giving him as many weapons as I possibly can. All in my effort to be the best of all of us who are armin' Ian. May Ian win against the forces of Lord Kelvon, lest we all be slaves instead of libertarians.
10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
ReplyDelete-2 Cor 12:10
1. Wouldn't that be for the persecuted not the persecutors?
2. Arminians here aren't persecuted at all, and they never have been. What earns them harsh treatment is when they fail to act in good faith. We've been over that ground before.
"...We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
-John 1:14
In context, this has nothing to do with His demeanor. It has to do with (a) His identity, God Incarnate, and (b) the fullness of revelation which came with Him. Jesus had lots of harsh things to say, and He said them plainly.
"2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
-2 Tim 4:2-4
This relates to the way the elders of a church teach within the confines of the local church. It does not deal with the way they are to treat false teachers who arise from that number or outside of their number.
And if, out of anger or frustration we want to crumble the opponent, making it secondary (or irrelevant) to win them over to the truth...then you can always break their bones cuz thats painful.. LOL:
If you believe folks here have acted in anger or frustration, then that's judging the thoughts and intents of the heart. Let's apply your own yardstick:
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.
15 Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.
-Proverbs 25:15
We've been quite patient with these folks. It isn't as if we went to them to single them out. They issued a public challenge and we took them up on it. When we did so, they, not we, began bleating like ewe lambs and launching emotional jeremiads. We kept on interacting, they began showing they couldn't argue in good faith. They earned their treatment.
It's generally those who impose extrascriptural speech codes upon us that complain, as if being a Christian is an automatic pass on thei information superhighway. No, it doesn't work that way. It has never worked that way, not in the Bible or the real world. As I recall, it was a female Piper fan that launched into one of those very same jeremiads herself on this blog and said she was going to pack her goodies and go home and not return. Sound familiar?
but which I blame Bush for so I do feel better
ReplyDeleteYou aren't allowed to say things like this unless you also blame Bush for something. Remember???
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ReplyDeleteYou aren't allowed to say things like this unless you also blame Bush for something. Remember???
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I blame Bush for every thing.
I have proof.
Blast. Misadventures in post editing.
ReplyDelete"You aren't allowed to say things like this unless you also seriously blame Bush for something."
Oh, well...
1. Wouldn't that be for the persecuted not the persecutors?
ReplyDeleteYes this verse was meant for those persecuted, and yes I was notifying all persectors of this verse.
2. Arminians here aren't persecuted at all, and they never have been. What earns them harsh treatment is when they fail to act in good faith. We've been over that ground before.
Right, again, both Calvinists and Arminians need keep hold to this “good faith”. And yes it is debatable. Each side will deny it, which is why these list was more for each individual’s conscience. How am I going to look into the intentionality and hearts of each individual to determine whether a bad action (if it exists) was due to bad judgement or intentional meany-ness hehe.
"In context, this has nothing to do with His demeanor. It has to do with (a) His identity, God Incarnate, and (b) the fullness of revelation which came with Him. Jesus had lots of harsh things to say, and He said them plainly.
Jesus did have a lot of harsh things to say. No one is debating the “force” or “strength” of a rebuke. His identity consisted of grace and truth, this truth is where these “harsh” statements come from. But he did it with an intended heart of grace, both at the specified level of every teaching, parable, and miracle he did, as well as the broader concept of his sacrifice as God Incarnate. Indeed this is what we should mimic.
This relates to the way the elders of a church teach within the confines of the local church. It does not deal with the way they are to treat false teachers who arise from that number or outside of their number.
So in application, Arminians are not a part of the “church” (not speaking in the local sense of course)? In your dichotomy (local elders vs. false teachers within (or outside?)), which group does verse 4 refer to?
If you believe folks here have acted in anger or frustration, then that's judging the thoughts and intents of the heart. Let's apply your own yardstick
Well, it should be “our own yardstick”…cuz its scripture. I was pointing out the possibility… my sentence started with “And if”, just like your sentence started with “If you..”.
We've been quite patient with these folks. It isn't as if we went to them to single them out. They issued a public challenge and we took them up on it. When we did so, they, not we, began bleating like ewe lambs and launching emotional jeremiads. We kept on interacting, they began showing they couldn't argue in good faith. They earned their treatment.
No problem with taking up challenges, or even starting challenging towards others. Let’s admit, Calvinists start things just as Arminians start things. Again its debatable who started it first, but from the way I see it, both sides took jabs that depicted a lack of an ability to articulate points in good faith, if that is what was intended. In any case, if one person starts something, our guidance for responding should be to go back to the scriptural norm in attitude and demeanor, rather than meeting the escalation.
Proverbs 19:
11 A man's wisdom gives him patience; it is to his glory to overlook an offense.
anyways, dont want to cause any rifts as I support you guys. but keep those posts coming. thanks!
ReplyDeleteThis is nothing to do with this thread. I was just wondering whether someone could address the issue of whether compatibilist freewill, in order to work, requires divine causation rather than, say, the chemical causation that exists within an atheistic worldview. I have never seen (that is no doubt a deficiency on my part), a good analysis of the differences between theological causation and matter causation.
ReplyDeleteHi AMC,
ReplyDeleteMaterialistic causation is susceptible to John Hick's argument:
1. If determinism is true, no one believes anything because they have a good reason for believing it. (Instead, they believe it because their neurons have been caused to fire in a certain way).
2. If no one believes anything because they have a good reason for believing it, no beliefs are rational.
3. Therefore, if determinism is true, no beliefs are rational, including the belief that determinism is true.
This argument breaks down if the causing agent is rational rather than irrational.
What would you guys recommend as a good book, article, or anything else that talks about Compatiblism and what it means and doesn't mean, its strengths and weaknesses?
ReplyDeleteAny help or direction would be appreciated.
AMC,
ReplyDeleteJohn Byl argues against naturalistic determinism in _The Divine Challegne_. I wasn't sold on his arguments. I also recall a convo with Sean Choi (who just finished his PH.D. dissertation on some issues surrounding debates over the metaphysics of free will, and who is a Christian compatibilist) who said he didn't think the types of problems you're hinting at were problems for the atheistic compatibilist. In other words, they're not robots.
But, he did say that they had other problems, epistemic ones. He hinted that Plantinga's EAAN gave them worries. Also, Bernabe (below) gives a kind of argument from reason against the materialist (cf. Reppert's _C.S. Lewis' Dangerous Idea_ for a robust and fuller developed version of that argument.
Lastly, Ben, you could check with the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. They have free artciles on the web. Just search for things like "free will," "compatibilism," and "moral responsibility." Also, I would recommed the _Oxford Handbook of Free Will_ as an invaluable resource. There is also a new book, _Four Views on Free Will_, that presents a good intro to the issues. I think Kane has a very good intro to the subejct, though he is libertarian. His book is _A Contemporary Introduction to Free Will_.