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DagoodS said:
Steve,
Interesting discussion, of course. You did say something, though, upon which I would appreciate some discussion:
Are you stating, that as humans we have the capability of thwarting God’s plan, and simply lack the knowledge? How? How could a human mess up God’s plan merely by obtaining more knowledge?
Secondly, doesn’t this introduce a reason for God to be deceptive? If the only thing preventing us from causing God to not be able to do what God wants to do is knowledge, and the only way in which God can prevent us from obtaining that knowledge is by deliberately withholding it, in the event someone DID discover such knowledge, God would be inclined to deceive the person?
This makes knowledge the ultimate weapon (poor choice of words, but still…) against God. Making secrets and deceit the tools by which God could achieve his plan.
Thanks, in advance, for your explanation.
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1.We can only resist a plan if we know what the plan is. Only knowledge of the plan would supply a definite objection to rebel against.
If God decreed that I make a left turn at a certain time and place, I could only do otherwise if I knew the content of the plan. It’s the knowledge of A that generates the hypothetical alternative (non-A).
The possibility of resistance is relative to the object of resistance. If I know that I’m “supposed” to make a left turn, then I can think of making a right turn instead of a left-turn in defiance of the plan.
2.It’s not that human beings are able to thwart the will of God.
Rather, the decree is only possible under certain conditions. If those preconditions are withdrawn, then it isn’t possible to decree the outcome.
So I’m not stipulating a decree, and then saying that, given the decree, along with other variables, it’s possible to frustrate the decree.
Rather, I’m saying that predestination is no longer possible if certain preconditions are removed.
3.Now, in principle, it would be possible for God to exhaustively reveal his decree (not that we could process that amount of information), and still determine the outcome.
He could simply override the will of the agent, or box him by various circumstances.
In other words, the alternative to predestinarian determinism is fatalistic determinism.
The textbook case is Greek fatalism. Croesus and Oedipus know their fate. They make very effort to escape their fate. And they fulfill their fate in the very effort to evade their fate.
A modern variant is the B-movie “Final Destination.”
Ironically, this is how the open theist enables God to control the outcome. In open theism, God doesn’t know the future, and so he cannot predetermine the outcome, but he can still determine the outcome by outmaneuvering the human (or diabolical) agent.
So open theism exchanges predestination for fatalism.
There is also a fatalistic quality to Molinism. It endows the agent a libertarian freewill. But the agent has no control over what possible world is instantiated.
Given a choice, he’d prefer to be instantiated in a world where he goes to heaven rather than hell.
So Molinism gives the agent a free “will” without the freedom of opportunity to actually choose otherwise.
4.In Calvinism, by contrast, the agent is not trapped in a scenario against his will. He is not consciously fated to do one thing when he would do otherwise if only given the chance.
So there is, in Calvinism, no tension between what we want to do and what we’re going to do.
5.There’s a distinction between deception and concealment. While some forms of concealment amount to deception, concealment is not inherently deceptive.
And there can be many good reasons for withholding information.
For that matter, there are circumstances in which outright deception is licit, viz., the stock example of hiding Jews from the Nazis.
6.It’s not as if God must intervene, by some special action, to prevent us from discovering the contents of the decree.
The decree is not an object of natural knowledge. We are not privy to the mind of God.
The only possible source of knowledge about the decree would come by way of divine disclosure.
7. As a matter of fact, Scripture does attribute deception to God, via a secondary agent (1 Kg 22:23; Ezk 14:9; 2 Thes 2:9-11).
But God only deceives the reprobate, not the elect.
Indeed, the elect are divinely shielded from deception (Mt 24:22; Rev 20:3).
Steve,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the response.
Are you saying that by lack of knowledge we will always do that which God has pre-determined?
And I remain confused (perhaps my fault) as to whether humans can thwart God’s will. Whether we have the actual capability to prevent something God pre-determined to happen from happening.
You started this off with:
Steve: To the extent that his decretive will remains a secret, that ensures the fulfillment of his decretive will consistent with his revealed will.
This would certainly imply to me that there is a possiblity God’s decretive will not be fulfilled in some way, and by the term “secret” it is the obtaining of knowledge that would prevent it. You go on:
Steve: For if God were to reveal his decretive will exhaustively, then this would tip people off, and with that advance knowledge they would then be in a position to thwart the plan.
As I stated in my original comment, this seems to clearly state that knowledge would provide humans with an action they are already capable of doing—namely preventing God’s will from happening.
But in this response, you now state:
Steve: 2.It’s not that human beings are able to thwart the will of God.
From which I infer that regardless of knowledge, it is impossible for humans to thwart the will of God. Do you see my confusion?
Your example of a left turn is a good one, so let’s use that.
Steve: If I know that I’m “supposed” to make a left turn, then I can think of making a right turn instead of a left-turn in defiance of the plan.
Yes, you can think of it. But can you do it?
Assume I have the ability to take a right-turn or a left turn.
Assume I learn, some way, that God has decreed I must take a left turn.
Assume I intend to thwart God’s plan.
Do I have the physical capability of taking a right-turn? Or if God has pre-determined that I will take a left turn, no matter what happens I will take that left turn?
Now assume I do not know God’s decree.
Is it possible I will take a right-turn?
What if I have no intent whatsoever? I do not know God’s plan, do not even know there is a God. If God DID have a plan, I have no problem following it.
Is it possible, I could inadvertently take that right-turn anyway?
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that by lack of knowledge we will always do that which God has pre-determined?
And I remain confused (perhaps my fault) as to whether humans can thwart God’s will. Whether we have the actual capability to prevent something God pre-determined to happen from happening.
I think, in part, here, Dagwood, you have to consider the noetic effects of sin as understood by Calvinism. Calvinism differentiates between a natural ability and a moral ability. The unregenerate, if they knew God's decree might not want to do it morally, because they would perceive it as obedience to God. So, the reason they would "have the ability" to thwart it would arise from the noetic effects of sin.
In fact, folks perceive that very thing all the time. Frequently, the charge is "If God decreed A, and I did A, then why does God hold it against me for having done A." This is the heart of Paul's argument in Romans 9. The reason is that a moral action requires a moral motive. The motive that lays behind you complying with the decree of God is not one of love for God but hatred for God, so God holds you morally responsible for your actions, even if you did comply with the sovereign decree of God.
Now, what if you knew the decree? Would you comply with it anyway? Well, if you did, but you still did it out of spite for God, then you'd be in the same position. If you didn't do it, then you'd still be acting out of spite for God, and still in the same position.
So, man's ability to thwart God's plan is thwarted by his own sin. In fact, sin generates divine silence, and thus impinges man's knowledge, that is, it gives God a reason to keep His decree from man, which He is under no obligation to disclose anyway. In Scripture divine silence is predicated on judgment for sin or the testing of God (as in the Garden when God is not on the scene until after the first couple fall). So, even if men had the innate ability to thwart God's plan if they knew it, their sin results in God's silence as judgment so that He does not reveal it. It also results in a certain amount of deception on God's part in that Scripture teaches He deploys secondary agents to deceive unregenerate men, viz. false prophets, demons, etc. In those cases, that reflects God's (presumptive judgment) on their sin. They sin all the more, compounding sin with more sin, and judgment with more judgment. The reason they do this is because their moral desires, not because of natural inabilities. Regenerattion restores that moral ability, thus men exercise saving faith and set about obeying God out of a right motive.