tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post885961113323951404..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Catholic methodists and Protestant particularistsRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-37942931754303667012017-12-06T12:00:10.487-05:002017-12-06T12:00:10.487-05:00"What all these stipulative principles share ..."What all these stipulative principles share in common is to begin with a preconceived idea of what must be the case; then adjust your theology accordingly."<br /><br />That is misrepresentation of Catholic position and our reasoning. It, of course, true, that we claim that Catholic epistemology, ecclesiology etc. is superior to Protestant one, but that does not mean that we believe things we believe merely because we want to suit our theology to preconceived ideas about what Christian epistemology and ecclesiology must be like. Rather, we provide Scriptural and historical arguments for all of Catholic doctrines - of course, you may disagree with these arguments, but they certainly do not constitute "intuitin ecclesiology" or "postulating armchair claims regarding what Church should be like". Sure, we often point out that living Magisterium is necessary to have any objective knowledge of God's revelation, but that does not mean that we believe the Magisterium merely because we want to have certainty about objective truthfulness our doctrines. Rather, we believe it because of Scriptural and historical arguments. Pointing out the necessity of Magisterium for objective knowledge of God's revelation serves rather pointing out incoherence and relativism of Protestant epistemology, which, as you already conceded on this blog, reduces Christian faith to probabilities. <br /><br />"Problem for opponents: Catholics must be able to independently interpret what's magisterial and what's heretical."<br /><br />In principle that is not the case. The Church can determine through official pronouncement (ideally by the Imperfect Council) that a Pope fell into formal heresy and ceased to be Pope, and subsequently depose him. That is a normative situation and that can still happen with Francis, although is presently unlikely due to large number of liberals among the cardinals and bishops (who, if formal heretics, are outside the Church as well). Same with episodes like Arian councils, Synod of Pistoia, part of Council of Constance which was later nullified etc. Yes, before they were nullified Catholics had only their private judgment do determine that they were illegitimate, but the Church possessed means to provide certainty about that and make it known with certainty.Arvingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03575690683878059246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15868086607108192062017-12-05T13:59:32.098-05:002017-12-05T13:59:32.098-05:00The living tradition change happened at Vatican 2...The living tradition change happened at Vatican 2 though and was anticipated by modernist George Tyrell. He came up with the concept of evolution of dogma. Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-91514579700285765182017-12-05T13:39:12.595-05:002017-12-05T13:39:12.595-05:00I don't think it was ever based on facts on th...I don't think it was ever based on facts on the ground. That's why Newman had to change horses in mid-stream. Roughly speaking, I think the reversals began with two encyclicals by Pius XII: Humani Generis and Divino afflante Spiritu. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28402465433212279582017-12-05T12:37:08.511-05:002017-12-05T12:37:08.511-05:00Steve would you agree with me that paradigm was le...Steve would you agree with me that paradigm was less abstract and more based on facts on the ground before Vatican 2 and Pope Francis? I mean you had the magisterium back then supporting the claims of the apologists and the RC church was more stable and uniform before Vatican 2. All those reversals in doctrines that you mentioned above happened at Vatican 2 and since then. Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.com