tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post8738661830356673438..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Now Is Our TimeRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26905867592719105402008-11-06T06:13:00.000-05:002008-11-06T06:13:00.000-05:00Peter -- these are the kinds of things I was talki...Peter -- these are the kinds of things I was talking about:<BR/><BR/><I>In the months ahead, the conservative movement will regroup. It will refine its principles for the present needs of the nation: growth, personal liberty, and national security. It will find the next generation of conservative political leaders. If President Obama really makes good on his promise to return to the New Deal of the 1930s and the Great Society of the 1960s, a revitalized conservative movement will be back on top sooner than one might expect. </I><BR/><BR/>http://townhall.com/columnists/EmmettTyrrell/2008/11/06/campaign_08,_the_bell_tolls_for_thee<BR/><BR/><I>Goldwater's loss was constructive; it invigorated his party by reorienting it ideologically. McCain's loss was sterile, containing no seeds of intellectual rebirth....<BR/><BR/>conservatives should note what their current condition demonstrates: Opinion is shiftable sand. It can be shifted, as Goldwater understood, by ideas, and by the other party overreaching, which the heavily Democratic Congress elected in 1964 promptly did. </I><BR/><BR/>http://townhall.com/columnists/GeorgeWill/2008/11/06/conservatives,_take_noteJohn Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-41544148411291866052008-11-05T23:19:00.000-05:002008-11-05T23:19:00.000-05:00"Now is our time."I kinda like Ann Coulter's sugge...<I>"Now is our time."</I><BR/><BR/>I kinda like <A HREF="http://townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2008/11/05/the_reign_of_lame_falls_mainly_on_mccain?page=full&comments=true" REL="nofollow">Ann Coulter's</A> suggestion on what to do with the GOP's navel-gazing time:<BR/><BR/>"After showing nearly superhuman restraint throughout this campaign, which was lost the night McCain won the California primary, I am now liberated to announce that all I care about is hunting down and punishing every Republican who voted for McCain in the primaries. I have a list and am prepared to produce the names of every person who told me he was voting for McCain to the proper authorities. <BR/><BR/>We'll start with former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Florida Gov. Charlie Crist. Then we shall march through the states of New Hampshire and South Carolina -- states that must never, ever be allowed to hold early Republican primaries again.<BR/><BR/>For now, we have a new president-elect. In the spirit of reaching across the aisle, we owe it to the Democrats to show their president the exact same kind of respect and loyalty that they have shown our recent Republican president.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44929075748518999662008-11-05T18:30:00.000-05:002008-11-05T18:30:00.000-05:00TUAD,It would be more believable if Prop 8 had fai...TUAD,<BR/><BR/>It would be more believable if Prop 8 had failed in CA (to give one example). It would also be more believable if we had candidates who actually ran on those principals in the first place instead of the principal of "reaching across the aisle" to come to a "consensus."<BR/><BR/>In any case, the polls (if they can be believed) indicate that the issue was the economy. What I read said that 60 percent noted the economy first. Nothing got more than 10 percent after that. So this election was not a referendum on social conservatism at all.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-54800074562301228932008-11-05T18:00:00.000-05:002008-11-05T18:00:00.000-05:00Great post Peter! What is your assessment of the ...Great post Peter! What is your assessment of the following commentary by a well-known pundit?<BR/><BR/>"If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide. As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win."<BR/><BR/>Excerpted from: <A HREF="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/31824_Should_the_GOP_Double_Down_on_Social_Conservatism" REL="nofollow"> Should the GOP Double Down on Social Conservatism?</A>Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32476682813657947352008-11-05T15:32:00.000-05:002008-11-05T15:32:00.000-05:00Peter said:“Except that non-conservatives have to ...Peter said:<BR/><BR/>“Except that non-conservatives have to run under Conservative platforms. Even though none of us believes Obama, he still ran claiming to cut taxes on most Americans. That's not a Liberal position; that's a Conservative position. He still had to distance himself from his real position on gun control. He still had to say all the things that would appeal to Conservatives (regardless of whether you believe him or not). He even had to temper his statements on abortion….And I think it's for this reason that the voters don't hold politicians accountable for lying during the campaign. It's for this reason that the broken promises of Liberals running as Conservatives aren't punished. But this is not because Conservative ideas are unpopular; rather it is because most Americans are hopelessly immoral.”<BR/><BR/>I agree that most Americans are conservative on some issues. And on some issues they’re inconsistent, sometimes conservative and sometimes not. They’re more concerned about their own tax bracket than the taxes of the wealthy, to the point where they’ll often go along with a tax plan that only cuts the taxes of the middle class or only raises the taxes of the upper class. Obama didn’t say that he would cut everybody’s taxes. As you’ve said, he offered tax cuts for most, not all. He said, inaccurately, that he would cut taxes for 95% and raise taxes for others. And while Obama tempered his statements on abortion, he still referred to himself as pro-choice. His support of the legality of partial-birth abortion and infanticide was explained by McCain in a debate viewed by tens of millions of people, for example, and the public showed little interest. The fact that Obama has to do so little tempering, on abortion as well as other issues, is revealing. His stated position on abortion wasn’t even moderate. His position on raising taxes on the upper class could be classified as moderate, but I wouldn’t classify it as conservative. <BR/><BR/>I doubt that we disagree much. Most Americans are conservative on some issues, which gives conservative candidates an opportunity to appeal to them on those issues, then implement a larger conservative agenda once elected. But I wouldn’t say that most Americans are conservatives. Many non-conservatives are persuadable to some conservative positions, though, and I agree that we need candidates who are better at persuasion.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-88146418069071274432008-11-05T14:51:00.000-05:002008-11-05T14:51:00.000-05:00Jason,One quibble. You said:---I think conservati...Jason,<BR/><BR/>One quibble. You said:<BR/>---<BR/>I think conservatives are a minority...<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Except that non-conservatives have to run under Conservative platforms. Even though none of us believes Obama, he still ran claiming to cut taxes on most Americans. That's not a Liberal position; that's a Conservative position. He still had to distance himself from his real position on gun control. He still had to say all the things that would appeal to Conservatives (regardless of whether you believe him or not). He even had to temper his statements on abortion.<BR/><BR/>I think the average American is far more Conservative than Liberal, which is why "Liberalism" remains a dirty word and Democrats still run as if they are Conservatives (even if they then don't govern as such).<BR/><BR/>I do agree however with your final statement that:<BR/>---<BR/>Most voters are more concerned about their money than they are about something like the lives of children or the quality of judges.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>And I think it's for this reason that the voters don't hold politicians accountable for lying during the campaign. It's for this reason that the broken promises of Liberals running as Conservatives aren't punished. But this is not because Conservative ideas are unpopular; rather it is because most Americans are hopelessly immoral.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-82458707963392721422008-11-05T14:46:00.000-05:002008-11-05T14:46:00.000-05:00John,Again, thanks for your words. There are seve...John,<BR/><BR/>Again, thanks for your words. There are several places where Conservative thought is proclaimed (NRO, Weekly Standard, etc.--you can even include Limbaugh if you want). And I'm not saying Conservatives need to be lock-step on every issue. We have room for diversity within Conservative thought (compare Steyn, Goldberg, and Hanson, for instance, who largely agree but yet still have disagreements from time to time).<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately the LEADERSHIP of the GOP has taken Conservatives for granted and has run candidates that are not Conservative at all assuming that Conservatives will care more about winning than about maintaining philosophical coherency. They tell us we must reach out to the moderates to win instead of trying to convert the moderates to Conservatives. And that's where the problem comes from.<BR/><BR/>So the GOP does have a crisis of leadership going on. But the crisis is not caused by Conservativism. Conservatives already know the solution; we are simply being ignored.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36364406576299899472008-11-05T14:30:00.000-05:002008-11-05T14:30:00.000-05:00Regarding how inarticulate McCain was, it’s worth ...Regarding how inarticulate McCain was, it’s worth noting that this has been a problem for Republicans, at the presidential level, since Reagan. The elder Bush, Dole, the younger Bush, and McCain are poor communicators and poor at thinking on their feet, as Peter put it.<BR/><BR/>I think that’s one of the reasons why Romney was appealing to a lot of Republicans this year. Romney isn’t a Reagan, but he’s significantly better than the candidates we’ve had in recent years in this regard. Romney had other problems, such as credibility. That credibility problem diminished his believability and likeability, despite his communication skills and his above average ability to think on his feet. In all three of the presidential elections won by Democrats since Reagan, the Democratic candidate has been significantly more like Reagan than the Republican in this respect. Clinton and Obama aren’t at Reagan’s level, but they’re much closer to that level than a Dole or a McCain. I think conservatives are a minority, but somebody like Reagan can persuade enough non-conservatives to vote for him so as to arrive at a majority. Self-identified liberals were still far outnumbered by self-identified moderates and conservatives in this election.<BR/><BR/>I don’t think we’re anywhere near the point where a third party would be appropriate. I expect the next Republican nominee to be Bobby Jindal or somebody else who’s closer to Reagan than McCain.<BR/><BR/>And though I think Obama will refrain from being as liberal as he’d like to be, I expect him to be much more liberal than McCain would have been. Obama can be liberal on issues like abortion and judges and get reelected, like Clinton. The fact that he can’t raise taxes as much as he’d like to, for example, doesn’t suggest that he’ll be similarly reserved on an issue like abortion or judges. Most voters are more concerned about their money than they are about something like the lives of children or the quality of judges.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64147930871261009942008-11-05T13:19:00.000-05:002008-11-05T13:19:00.000-05:00Peter: "all the thought needed in place..." I'm wo...Peter: <I>"all the thought needed in place..." </I><BR/><BR/>I'm wondering if you could direct me to that place. I'm thinking that "all that thought" is compartmentalized in a bunch of different places. But there is no unifying theme. When I was looking for a horse, I think that was kind of it. <BR/><BR/>And that is different from "arguing our position". Reagan articulated it well: "It's morning in America. We need to have a strong defense, and I'll work to get government off our backs." (He also had Jimmy Carter to play off of.) That particular combination is not going to work in today's environment. <BR/><BR/>Politics requires brute numbers, and attaining brute numbers requires persuasion, in order to build a coalition. I have no doubt in my mind that you, yourself, are persuaded. You are a very clear thinker. But It is very clear to me, having looked at the myriad candidates from this primary, (each one having his own constituency within "the party"), and also, looking at, for example, the theonomy/two-kingdoms discussions that are going on, that there is no such thing as even a Christian or conservative consensus, much less a Republican one.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1545916634352288052008-11-05T13:09:00.000-05:002008-11-05T13:09:00.000-05:00Oh yes, and I suppose if you're asking "Why did th...Oh yes, and I suppose if you're asking "Why did the Republicans choose this path if there really are a lot of Conservatives?" it's because Republicans assumed that Conservatives will vote for them not matter what, and they're trying to pick off the moderate vote. Republicans treat Conservatives pretty much how the Democrats treat blacks: toss a few scraps here and there, but mainly just ignore them knowing that they'll follow along in lock-step.<BR/><BR/>The problem is, you don't win more Conservatives by assuming they'll just follow you no matter what. So the Republicans aren't making more converts. Conservativism is a winning philosophy, and when explained to people, people can grasp it. This is how Republicans first gained control of Congress in 1994. But after that, they ceased trying to make converts and began trying to pander to moderates.<BR/><BR/>So right now, there are fewer Conservatives out there than there would have been; but this is not the "natural course" of things. If Republicans take the initiative to begin presenting Conservative arguments once more, they'll be back to where they were in 1994. If they don't do this, the Conservatives that are left need to realize that *WE* can do that too. There's no reason for us to rely on the Republicans to do it for us.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-61228382748671467192008-11-05T13:04:00.000-05:002008-11-05T13:04:00.000-05:00Mesa Mike asked:---One thing that baffles me: Why ...Mesa Mike asked:<BR/>---<BR/>One thing that baffles me: Why did a significant majority of the electorate vote extreme left instead of moderate right, when what we're supposedly clamoring for is traditional Republicanism?<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Because there was no traditional Republican candidate this year. McCain is no conservative; he's a moderate. I don't think you can underestimate how much this turned off conservatives. Even though many conservatives went out and voted for him anyway, they did so because they wanted the lesser of two evils, not because they wanted him to win it.<BR/><BR/>That does impact the way that voters feel. Conservatives did not enthusiastically support McCain at all (indeed, he was the antithesis of many things we stand for), and that lack of enthusiasm harmed McCain, even if those same conservatives did vote for him.<BR/><BR/>It was also difficult on many issues to distinguish McCain from Obama, other than for degree. McCain would have legislated similarly to how Obama will, yet under the mantle of "Republican." (BTW, I make that claim due to the fact that Obama will be unable to enforce the radical aspects of his agenda without losing his weak majority in the popular vote, and he's not going to want to risk that; as a result, his actual governance will be fairly close--not identical, but close--to how McCain would have governed had McCain won.)<BR/><BR/>The net result is that there was no reason to vote FOR McCain, only reasons to vote against Obama. And you won't typically win elections that way.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18480473759003082172008-11-05T12:52:00.000-05:002008-11-05T12:52:00.000-05:00Hi John,Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, ...Hi John,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, I couldn't disagree more with your conclusion. We have all the thought needed already in place. Now <I>IS</I> the time to act (actually, 2006 was the time to act...but better late than never).<BR/><BR/>This is the time to act because the Republicans are experiencing the problem right now. There's no time for them to try to wiggle out of it and pretend it's something else. So this is the perfect, and necessary, time to act.<BR/><BR/>However, that said, part of our actions require us to argue our position. And we DO need to think about that. So there is a need for reflection and thought too; but not at the expense of letting go of this opportunity.<BR/><BR/>I think there are enough conservatives who've been thinking and reflecting on these issues for that past two years that we can begin to act now, too. And we can carry along others.<BR/><BR/>Note that I'm not saying we'll become a mega-force overnight, but we have to start now.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69749649915793985742008-11-05T12:41:00.000-05:002008-11-05T12:41:00.000-05:00CD!You're wrong!.Thanks for the post.You're ole bu...CD!<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://livingproofministries.blogspot.com/2008/11/united-house.html" REL="nofollow">You're wrong!</A>.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the post.<BR/><BR/>You're ole buddy, MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-842292106778613292008-11-05T12:38:00.000-05:002008-11-05T12:38:00.000-05:00One thing that baffles me: Why did a significant m...One thing that baffles me: Why did a significant majority of the electorate vote extreme left instead of moderate right, when what we're supposedly clamoring for is traditional Republicanism?<BR/><BR/>Makes no sense to me.Mike Westfallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06944727980772754938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22280136166574393152008-11-05T11:30:00.000-05:002008-11-05T11:30:00.000-05:00Peter, I admire your can-do spirit here, but, resp...Peter, I admire your can-do spirit here, but, respectfully, I think that now is not the time, not yet. Your call to action to me seems to be rather like a call for dinosaurs to invest in bigger teeth, bigger tails, and heavier plating, when what is called for is the evolution of the horse. You point to "Conservative ideas," (pro-life, "our" social agenda, smaller government, limited taxes, a better climate for business, etc.), but there is something missing, and I would put that into the category of "applicability to real life." The people who were out celebrating last night don't want to hear about hard work, self-discipline and accountability. They'd rather have free health care, if not for themselves, then to make themselves feel better that their neighbor is at least taken care of.<BR/><BR/>Conservatives need something like a horse to evolve, not bigger tail fins. Now is not the time to act. It's the time to reflect and think.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.com