tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post8630585114133815353..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Hopeful universalismRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14466301862733584912011-03-09T16:52:42.904-05:002011-03-09T16:52:42.904-05:00"I'm not sure why the sunny notion that G..."I'm not sure why the sunny notion that God predestines everyone for salvation (eventually) is so offensive and distasteful to some."<br /><br />Sure, it's a sunny notion.....only, it doesn't line up with Scripture. Hell is not a place that anyone is excited about, nor is it a place that anyone is hoping others will end up. But that's why we are commanded to go into the world, preaching the message of repentance and faith in Jesus' atoning death for the forgiveness of sins.<br /><br />A loving and merciful God has made a way for wretched and depraved sinners to be reconciled to himself, and the parameters are very clear:<br /><br />"Jesus answered him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6Christine Packhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719086846292736363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45409133934285598722011-03-06T11:18:58.567-05:002011-03-06T11:18:58.567-05:00I said tow years ago that I don't think Rob Be...I said tow years ago that I don't think Rob Bell is a universalist; he seems to be leaning toward Universal Reconciliation: http://tiny.cc/6335aKen Silvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01390319268507275969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1975555648728468162011-03-05T23:50:36.047-05:002011-03-05T23:50:36.047-05:00"In universalism, God is still sovereign"..."In universalism, God is still sovereign"<br /><br />Not in the universalism that Boyd describes as that of Bell. There is no finiteness about it, no sovereign knowledge of the final tally. Hopeful universalism then undermines the sovereignty of God by undermining his knowledge of futurity. In that sense, it is even worse than the openness of Arminianism and Molinism, it is purely openness, for not even God can know the final outcome.<br /><br />"While its clear from Love Wins that Rob believes (as do I ) that God wants all to be saved, it’s also clear Rob believes (as do I) that humans [and, I would add, angels] have free will and that God will never coerce someone to accept his love and be “saved.” Rob doesn’t himself argue this way in his book, but it seems to me that if God will not coerce people into heaven, then hell (which, by the way, Rob does emphatically believe in) cannot have a pre-set, definitive, terminus point. That is, hell is not, at present, finite. Hence, in this sense, hell is, at present, infinite (= not finite). And this holds true even if Rob believes he has warrant to hope everyone will eventually be saved. And for this reason, I would argue that Rob cannot hold to Universalism as a doctrine: he cannot be, in the classic sense of the word, a Universalist."<br /><br />Note the anti-Calvinist caricatures. But more, note how he defines universalism as indeterminism. Thus it is hopeful that more will get in than can be fitted within a finiteness. So the now becomes infinite, and the future finite. By presdigitation, Boyd and Bell by Boyd's assessment, destroys meaning then reconstructs it to fit an agnostic set of beliefs. (What is not finite isn't necessarily infinite, but may only be indeterminate.) Man cannot know because God cannot know the future or it would be finite, which to them means finished. In doing that, Boyd confuses categories, i.e., infinitude with eternality, sequential necessity and therefore numerical essentiality with nonsequential existence, without number, the essential attribute of eternality. The effect being that only in the now is Hell eternal, because that numbering is still adding up, but when the end comes, it will reach terminus status and be finite. It will end. The problem, of course is why isn't that the case with heaven. And thus raises the other head of this brand of hopeful universalism, anihilationism, and that of an eternal life that also has terminus, if indeed infiniteness is the same as eternality and only exists in the now. It means than only now, and this is clearly Bell, is there, or can there be, heaven on Earth. What comes next cannot be gauranteed, cannot be understood as real, for all that can be known is what is being. And if the finite = not infinite definition of futurity is true, then the end of time is the end of all for all. Univesal anihilationism. It is also a kind of universalism, since all will be saved from hell.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-92158148786978428282011-03-05T23:46:27.840-05:002011-03-05T23:46:27.840-05:00"Rob Bell by saying he is an artist type"..."Rob Bell by saying he is an artist type"<br /><br />He claims to be a pastor. Unless he is just play-acting, he has no excuse:<br /><br />Teach and urge these things. If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.<br /><br />That fairly well sums it up.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22106312343831065322011-03-05T19:46:05.077-05:002011-03-05T19:46:05.077-05:00Peter Lumpkins?
Oh, yeah, I remember he played &q...Peter Lumpkins?<br /><br />Oh, yeah, I remember he played "Hymie" the robot on "Get Smart"right?Steve Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11914762484513955857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90903423253166765782011-03-05T18:53:30.093-05:002011-03-05T18:53:30.093-05:00I've explained that on many occasions.I've explained that on many occasions.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39717971409035956752011-03-05T17:19:37.713-05:002011-03-05T17:19:37.713-05:00I'm not sure why the sunny notion that God pre...I'm not sure why the sunny notion that God predestines everyone for salvation (eventually) is so offensive and distasteful to some. <br /><br />If someone preached the notion of universal <i>damnation</i> (or for all but a few), it would probably be met with less hostility.<br /><br />Can anyone explain why this is? In universalism, God is still sovereign and is the ultimate defeater of death, evil and sin, no?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01694207997231305470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89627890882241679112011-03-05T11:04:34.181-05:002011-03-05T11:04:34.181-05:00On a more serious note, Paul expresses hope for th...On a more serious note, Paul expresses hope for the salvation of Israel but was quite clear I think that not everyone is getting in.<br /><br />And this repeated atempt to excuse Rob Bell by saying he is an artist type and not dogmatic. We all subscribe to views that are part of our dogmatics/philosophy. The honest ones admit that they do.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-85072498872434122452011-03-05T11:03:35.995-05:002011-03-05T11:03:35.995-05:00I take it to mean one doesn't hold the univers...I take it to mean one doesn't hold the universalist position, but the amount of certainty they have about exclusivity leaves room for hope that they are wrong. Of course, it probably leaves room for other less hopeful options too. ;-)David Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13714637134009580948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-21725851720463114522011-03-05T11:02:12.443-05:002011-03-05T11:02:12.443-05:00Or a hopeful dogmatic universalist or a ....Or a hopeful dogmatic universalist or a ....GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50745179614348958902011-03-05T11:00:59.778-05:002011-03-05T11:00:59.778-05:00I know I am getting old, 50 next year, but these w...I know I am getting old, 50 next year, but these word games get confusing.<br /><br />So a hopeful universalist is not a universalist?GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.com