tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post7518232310766215282..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Art imitates lifeRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-85203157656037039002018-03-21T19:23:15.540-04:002018-03-21T19:23:15.540-04:00Again, chapter 2 on the Jewish reclamation of Jesu...Again, chapter 2 on the Jewish reclamation of Jesus is pages 13-23.<br /><br /><a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=EPjHvDz2FpoC&printsec=frontcover" rel="nofollow">https://books.google.com/books?id=EPjHvDz2FpoC&printsec=frontcover</a>ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5143856288749641532018-03-21T19:20:12.530-04:002018-03-21T19:20:12.530-04:00Here's a working link to Dr. Brown's book ...Here's a working link to Dr. Brown's book The Real Kosher Jesus:<br /><br /><a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=EPjHvDz2FpoC&printsec=frontcover" rel="nofollow">https://books.google.com/books?id=EPjHvDz2FpoC&printsec=frontcover<br /></a>ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-75290320918241659402018-03-21T19:18:41.807-04:002018-03-21T19:18:41.807-04:00List of Jewish messiah claimants
https://en.wikipe...List of Jewish messiah claimants<br /><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants</a><br /><br />See the above link to a list of historical <b><i>Jewish</i></b> Messianic claimants. Notice how many of them have Biblical names. I don't see any that also have the name Jesus. But that's to be expected since most of them come after Jesus. They normally wouldn't want to be associated with the Jesus of the 1st century. Generally it's <b><i>Gentile</i></b> claimants to be Messiah who claim to be Jesus (either returning or reincarnated etc.). So, we shouldn't be surprised that Jewish claimants to be the Messiah would have Old Testament names (some having more than one name that's Biblical). Moreover, even on secular grounds one can imagine that a person named Yeshua could have a god and/or messiah complex and think he's messiah merely because of having been given that name. So, it's not inherently implausible that the real Messiah would have the name Jesus, if even a false messiah could plausibly be so named. Nor does it make it more plausible that the story of Jesus in the New Testament is mythical merely because the messiah described in it is named "Jesus". Carrier clearly has an agenda that clouds his objectivity on the issues on even secular grounds (how much more on the grounds of openness to the possibility of theism?).<br /><br />I'd also like to point out that for the past 100 years there has been the "Jewish reclamation of Jesus". There are many Jewish rabbis, scholars and non-Jewish scholars who recognize the authentic Jewishness of the Jesus of the New Testament. When it comes to Jewish authorities, I recommend the survey given by Michael L. Brown in chapter 2 of his book The Real Kosher Jesus. Most of the chapter (or its entirety) can be read at the following link (pages 13-23). I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT. Notice HOW MANY Jewish rabbis and scholars accept that there was a real earthly and historical Jesus that the New Testament attests to. That's even though they reject his messiahship and divinity. They find in the Jesus of the Gospels (esp. the Synoptics) remnants of a truly Jewish rabbi. <br /><a rel="nofollow">https://books.google.com/books?id=EPjHvDz2FpoC&printsec=frontcover</a><br /><br />Carrier's position corresponds to the Flat Earth theories in historical Jesus studies because it goes contrary to all of the scholarly and evidential reasons for believing in a historical Jesus. Arguing against such a consensus (that includes conservative, liberal, some fringe, theists, atheistic, agnostic, Jewish, Christian scholars) requires a high degree of evidence and arguments, and Carrier just doesn't provide any. I hope he soon realizes how much he embarrasses himself with his Christ Myth theories and abandons them immediately.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-82221390777160186712018-03-21T17:29:30.993-04:002018-03-21T17:29:30.993-04:00typo correction:
shorted = shortened
I've fo...typo correction:<br /><br />shorted = shortened<br /><br />I've forgotten whether it was after the Babylonian Captivity or around the time of the building of the 2nd Temple that the name Yehoshua was often shortened to Yeshua.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10431010225333900562018-03-21T17:02:27.103-04:002018-03-21T17:02:27.103-04:00// Even if we tried to work the question from the ...//<i> Even if we tried to work the question from the probability of any Jew actually being named Jesus (which is roughly 1 in 26),13 in comparison to the probability of any savior god being named Savior (among that god's many names, and Jesus also had many names, from Christ to Lord to Emmanuel), we'd end up even worse off. Because probably most savior gods were called Savior (soter in Greek), I'd say that ratio is closer to 1 in 2, and that is over ten times more likely than 1 in 26, not just two times more likely as we were suggesting before [242]</i>//<br /><br />Many (most?) cultures, not just Semitic, give their children names which have overt or covert meaning. Sometimes the names have a negative connotation, but it's psychologically obvious why the names often have positive connotations. Parents would more naturally want to name their children with positive sounding names in hopes of a good future for the child. A child who will likely end up taking care of them in their old age. Moreover, "Jesus" was a popular name around the 1st century in that area of the world for at least two reasons. One being the fact that Joshua/Yehoshua/Yeshua was a famous leader in Israel's past, and parents naturally like to give the names of famous people to their children. Another reason was that people at that time were especially expecting a messiah to arrive soon on the historical scene, and so many couples would naturally want to name their sons in hopes that any particular son of theirs was a/the messiah. The names Jesus or Moses or David (et al.) would naturally be names one would think the Messiah would end up having. So, we shouldn't be surprised that the eventual Jewish messiah and savior would be named "Jesus". <br /><br />Finally, in the case of Jesus of Nazareth, according to Matt. 1:18-21 an angel told Joseph to specifically name the child "Jesus" [Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous)]. So, the New Testament itself says it's NOT a coincidence that Jesus the alleged savior is named Yeshua [a shorted form of Yehoshua], meaning "YHVH's salvation". Carrier talks as if it's too coincidental for Jesus to happen be named Jesus. Therefore it's likely a myth. But that ignores the fact that the New Testament AGREES it's <b><i>not</i></b> coincidental, since an angel <b>TOLD</b> Joseph to name the child such. Only if Carrier begs the question that God and angels don't exist would his objection work. <br /><br />When it comes to the name Emmanuel, that's not Jesus' proper name, but is more of a descriptive title of who He is.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22903306203084031252018-03-21T12:59:52.104-04:002018-03-21T12:59:52.104-04:00Several of Carrier's remarks seem to boil down...Several of Carrier's remarks seem to boil down to "if we presuppose an atheistic universe, then, it is unlikely that the Biblical Jesus existed". That's saying nothing useful.David Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177521181432533108noreply@blogger.com