tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post7328789658451741369..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: A little knowledge is a dangerous thingRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-66424078262289787822020-01-11T17:18:50.787-05:002020-01-11T17:18:50.787-05:00I think there is also something else. The internet...I think there is also something else. The internet can foster bad reading skills if you do not use it properly. If you are picking up your theology from the latest controversy or a blog post here, a tweet there, then your thinking is likely going to be a loosely connected jumble. <br /><br />I unfortunately first learned about "Calvanism" and "Armenism" by going out and following online debates. It would have been far better if I had sat down with R.C. Sproul's Chosen by God and read that first.<br /><br />At a foundational level, it is better to start with books and read them in a disciplined manner and then later go out on to the internet to either fill out lacunae, understand theologoumenon or more controversial issues. <br />rgbraohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243742903460712693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-79578670442502306602020-01-06T19:15:41.389-05:002020-01-06T19:15:41.389-05:00Has he not studied church history? There certainly...Has he not studied church history? There certainly were schisms in the early church. Besides that, there were certainly divisions otherwise people like Origen or Arius wouldn't have been able to flee one church for another.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-51273326333391995272020-01-06T14:43:39.455-05:002020-01-06T14:43:39.455-05:00Pastor Chan is a wonderful Christian, but he seems...Pastor Chan is a wonderful Christian, but he seems to lack the gift of contentment. There are two extremes. One is complacency. He certainly avoids that extreme. But the other extreme is to be a dabbler. Flitting from one thing to another. A little here, a little there. The failure to keep at one thing until it sticks. Having the fidelity and fortitude to keep working at the same thing, day in and day out, year in and year out, until it makes a difference. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26238563321338832382020-01-06T10:04:48.506-05:002020-01-06T10:04:48.506-05:00There's something obviously tendentious about ...There's something obviously tendentious about associating the pulpit primarily with the preacher (rather than God's word), but associating the communion table primarily with the elements (rather than the minister or priest).<br /><br />And as Steve points out, Chan makes the schoolboy error (and even this is too much to grant) of conflating a single organisational hierarchy with a "united church". Is Roman Catholicism today also a "united church", then?David Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177521181432533108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-49220000665147843012020-01-05T21:13:09.665-05:002020-01-05T21:13:09.665-05:00https://christiantruth.com/articles/articles-roman...https://christiantruth.com/articles/articles-roman-catholicism/Conhecereis a Verdadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10120910946523193443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62574136861224858562020-01-05T20:01:24.804-05:002020-01-05T20:01:24.804-05:00Hi Trent,
Here's something I wrote several ye...Hi Trent,<br /><br /><a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/10/studying-church-fathers.html" rel="nofollow">Here's</a> something I wrote several years ago about studying the church fathers, though it isn't focused on Roman Catholicism. And <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/04/historical-roots-of-reformation-and.html" rel="nofollow">here's</a> a collection of links to some of our material on Catholicism, organized by topic.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50750493109099847582020-01-05T17:03:56.617-05:002020-01-05T17:03:56.617-05:00Hi Jason,
What reading would you recommend for chu...Hi Jason,<br />What reading would you recommend for church history against the claims of Rome (primary and secondary)? Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05511008932132026210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22794678338789190762020-01-05T16:37:16.885-05:002020-01-05T16:37:16.885-05:00Chan makes some good points in the video Highway d...Chan makes some good points in the video Highway dog has cited, but some of what Chan says is problematic as well. He starts out referring to how God has taught him a lot in the last month or two. And <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=140RztrFRT8&t=14m45s" rel="nofollow">here</a> he is referring to how he "began" studying early Christian views of the eucharist. Apparently, that research was something he did just recently. He says that he's not elevating early Christian practices to the level of scripture, but that we should at least consider what they said. It's about twelve minutes before the end of the video when he makes the comments quoted at the beginning of this thread.<br /><br />He ought to know enough about church history to not make such inaccurate claims. And when the inaccurate claims are so much in line with what's said by groups as large and influential as Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, groups that teach a lot of significantly false doctrine and are so active in trying to draw away Evangelicals, the situation is even worse. I hope he's as open to correction as he suggests in the video and will correct what he's said.<br /><br />Since 1 Corinthians 11 comes up a lot in the video, I want to note that we've addressed the passage in many posts over the years. See Steve's material <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2017/01/discerning-body.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2019/07/unworthy-communicants.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, for example.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74304732920471294672020-01-05T16:21:22.910-05:002020-01-05T16:21:22.910-05:00In the sermon, he said that the Christians get to...In the sermon, he said that the Christians get together and concentrated on the sharing of the community, the teaching of the disciples, the praying together, some healing, and the communion of the Eucharist. Then he lets the other subjects that Christians did receive no mention, but concentrates on the sharing of the Communion. He also speaks of our right respect and commitment to the dangerous undertaking of having this Communion.----<br /><br />Like all of you, I have learned that God encourages me, a pitiful sinner, to come to the Eucharist as I come to Jesus Christ to petition for salvation and trusting Him. Highway doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02923553740379251691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-52947014971702692552020-01-05T16:03:59.485-05:002020-01-05T16:03:59.485-05:00The complete sermon is https://www.youtube.com/wat...The complete sermon is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=140RztrFRT8 .<br />I don't know why Sermonindex.net does not have the entire sermon. They only have 12 of his sermons presented and noted. <br /><br />Francis Chan is planning to leave Cornerstone Community Church of Simi Valley, California. He is not shy on loading up on what he thinks that church should improve on their Christian living. -----And then not being around to help them through it. Other church traditions ask that the pastor be quiet after they leave.<br />RobHighway doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02923553740379251691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-11094922540783063882020-01-05T14:45:11.624-05:002020-01-05T14:45:11.624-05:00Something Chan's comments illustrate is that p...Something Chan's comments illustrate is that pastors need to study far more than scripture. They need to study philosophy, history, and other fields that will make them more aware of the Bible's context, their own context, how to reason with people, etc. For all the attention that some Evangelicals give to responding to Catholicism, such as in the Reformed circles Chan has moved in, there's an appalling neglect of church history and other extrabiblical material among Evangelicals. That includes leaders, like Chan. It's not just that people like Chan are so susceptible to being deceived by groups like Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. They're also highly susceptible to all kinds of deceptions related to theological liberalism, atheism, the paranormal, etc. See <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2019/03/how-important-is-apologetics.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> regarding the problems with intellectual immaturity in modern Evangelicalism, especially with laymen, but also with leaders, like Chan.<br /><br />Concerning disunity being worse today than in the past, how likely is it that the situation would be otherwise if the Reformation hadn't occurred? There's also more disunity today than in the past among atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, philosophers, scientists, etc. That's something that goes with the passing of time. People have more time to think through issues, develop more advanced belief systems, etc. It's also related to developments in areas like technology and political freedom. Blaming disunity on the Reformation (or the division between East and West before the Reformation, for example) is simplistic. The cause of the disunity we see is multifaceted. And not all types of disunity are bad, nor are they all equally significant.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45436993252379623292020-01-05T14:11:04.736-05:002020-01-05T14:11:04.736-05:00I hadn't seen the video before. When I read wh...I hadn't seen the video before. When I read what Steve quoted, I thought he was quoting a highly ignorant or dishonest Roman Catholic apologist or somebody close to converting to Catholicism. If Chan hasn't left Evangelicalism or come close to it, then he sounds a lot like somebody who has.<br /><br />His claims about church history are deeply erroneous. See <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2019/07/you-ought-to-believe-in-real-absence.html" rel="nofollow">this article</a> for a summary of the evidence that the earliest Christians didn't believe in a physical presence of Christ in the eucharist. Regarding patristic Christianity, see <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/06/eucharist-in-ignatius-and-other-fathers.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/07/interpreting-bible-and-later-sources-on.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. See, also, the material <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/03/apostolic-succession-part-12-irenaeus.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> on Irenaeus. One of the resources I cite in those posts, which can be accessed for free online, is Philip Schaff's church history. In it, he documents a wide variety of views of the eucharist during the patristic era and in later pre-Reformation church history. Chan's view of the history of eucharistic doctrine is very inaccurate.<br /><br />And if the eucharist was as central as Chan claims (and not just the eucharist, but the particular view of it he refers to), you have to wonder why the earliest opponents of Christianity seem so unaware of it. Not only do men like Trypho and Celsus seem unaware that they should have been so focused on the eucharist in their comments on Christianity, but so are the Christians who respond to them. The eucharist gets mentioned to some extent, but it doesn't have the role Chan suggests.<br /><br />Regarding unity, see <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2014/06/celsus-and-origen-on-christian-unity.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. On patristic and other pre-Reformation divisions involving Rome in particular, see <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/02/rome-and-early-christian-unity.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />There are many other posts in our archives addressing these issues.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73775237325592586982020-01-05T13:53:17.775-05:002020-01-05T13:53:17.775-05:00I believe that Chan is confused between an appropr...I believe that Chan is confused between an appropriate disparagement of the "cult of personality" and an inappropriate disparagement of the centrality of the Word (as God, as Incarnation, and as Revelation). Per 1 Corinthians 3, we are not to follow Paul (qua Paul) or Apollos (qua Apollos)...but Paul (or Apollos) as an imitator of Christ. Both Paul and Apollos are gifted speakers. And these gifts are not being downplayed. The gifts, however, are to be displayed for the glory of God alone and not for the honor of particular men.<br /><br />The Catholics have so lowered the status of the preacher that Catholics laity often turn to Protestant speakers to be fed spiritually. Is that deemed a healthy "unity of the body Catholic" phenomenon?<br /><br />Chan is right about one thing: Protestants have often devalued the significance of the Eucharist to the point of its becoming a throw-away event. Let's go through the motions and not attach much of an effort to it. In Covenanter Scotland, revivals often centered around the Eucharist. Though it wasn't done often, when it was done, it was done big...with a great deal of introspective preparation.<br /><br />The centrality of the Word is clearly furthered by mature leaders closeting themselves for 20 hours a week in the deep, prayerful study of Scripture. Chan has to know that. And to the extent that that genuinely happens, the conclusions that are propounded, when sifted together with others doing the same thing, become closer together, not farther apart. <br /><br />Catholics jettison theological purity for the sake of a superficial "unity." Protestants often jettison unity for a narrow and partisan stance on purity. They stay in their little cloisters and iron is never allowed to sharpen iron.<br /><br />Nevertheless, Evangelicals demonstrate far more unity in their "thousands of denominations"--more like 50, but why try to be honest?--than Roman Catholics are in their "one." And Evangelical communion tables are open to all other Evangelicals, which is the measure by which most Catholics evaluate unity. Not only that, but our purity, scrambled as it is, far outshines theirs.<br />Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813848972700972321noreply@blogger.com