tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6949265752028044519..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: "Times Like This"Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15190196978789029842008-01-27T02:02:00.000-05:002008-01-27T02:02:00.000-05:00let me get this straight:the atheist writer blames...let me get this straight:the atheist writer blames Christianity, at least obliquely, for the shooting rampage deaths, but seems to cry crocodile tears for the victims.I suppose this atheist writer cries equal volumes of crocodile tears for the atheist victims of Mao,Stalin, Pol POt, Khmer rouge,etc!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-88155706994869898732007-05-21T06:14:00.000-04:002007-05-21T06:14:00.000-04:00About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – fo...About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – four months of absolute terror. I wanted to end my life, but somehow [Holy Spirit], I reached out to a friend who took me to hospital. I had three visits [hospital] in four months – I actually thought I was in hell. I imagine I was going through some sort of metamorphosis [mental, physical & spiritual]. I had been seeing a therapist [1994] on a regular basis, up until this point in time. I actually thought I would be locked away – but the hospital staff was very supportive [I had no control over my process]. I was released from hospital 16th September 1994, but my fear, pain & shame had only subsided a little. I remember this particular morning waking up [home] & my process would start up again [fear, pain, & shame]. No one could help me, not even my therapist [I was terrified]. I asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me & forgive me my sins. Slowly, all my fear has dissipated & I believe Jesus delivered me from my “psychological prison.” I am a practicing Catholic & the Holy Spirit is my friend & strength; every day since then has been a joy & blessing. I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities. John 3: 8, John 15: 26, are verses I can relate to, organically. He’s a real person who is with me all the time. I have so much joy & peace in my life, today, after a childhood spent in orphanages [England & Australia]. God LOVES me so much. Fear, pain, & shame, are no longer my constant companions. I just wanted to share my experience with you [Luke 8: 16 – 17].<BR/><BR/>Peace Be With You<BR/>MickyAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940745178193985942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-21380017049462007152007-04-23T22:57:00.000-04:002007-04-23T22:57:00.000-04:00Really dumb dog said,"Right. One atheist writes a ...Really dumb dog said,<BR/><BR/>"Right. One atheist writes a timely and poignant piece of satire and you claim that no christian blog would ever resort to co-opting the VT killing spree. Uh-huh."<BR/><BR/>The context was "has been." That means "past." Your links report posts that came *after* this one of mine. Furthermore, where did those posts use it to "attack" Christians? I have no problem with people writting about the VT shootings.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, pup, listen to the big dawg, I can help. Holman's post attacked a weak view of Christainity. My post sliced his to shreds. So, the fact that you're sticking up for Holman shows you're just going by ideological presmises rather than rational ones.<BR/><BR/>Lastly, when I did satire and parody, atheists called me a liar and said I broke the 9th commandment. I'm glad you have just called them all idiots, or called Holman a liar. Either way, thanks for allowing me to use you for fodder. I'll let you know when I can use your services again.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18878041490887333292007-04-23T22:50:00.000-04:002007-04-23T22:50:00.000-04:00Poor Aaroncan't seem to follow arguments. I broug...Poor Aaroncan't seem to follow arguments. I brought up compatibilism in response to saying that Seung-Hui was a *robot* or *puppet.* And, so yes, compatibilism is relevant to my response.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, what is meant by "responsible." How does the fact that S determined that S* would P, means that S is morally responsible for doing P? <BR/><BR/>Responsible could mean "he ordained it." Okay. So what.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, where's your argument, Aaron? Do you even have one? Or is tough talk all you have left?Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-17915669838758009782007-04-22T13:26:00.000-04:002007-04-22T13:26:00.000-04:00Paul Manata said: But why is it that it is only th...Paul Manata said: <I>But why is it that it is only the atheists who have been using the events as excuses to attack Christians.</I><BR/><BR/>Right. One atheist writes a timely and poignant piece of satire and you claim that no <A HREF="http://www.christianforums.com/t5196494-christ-loved-cho-seung-hui.html" REL="nofollow">christian blog</A> would ever <A HREF="http://www.irishcalvinist.com/?cat=181" REL="nofollow">resort</A> to <A HREF="http://www.spcm.org/Journal/spip.php?article9644" REL="nofollow">co-opting</A> the VT killing spree. Uh-huh.<BR/><BR/>--<BR/><BR/>Peter:<BR/><I>you've given no basis for your own morals.</I><BR/>I most certainly did: selfishness. The Golden Rule was around long before the Bible and is apparent in every society we observe, from Western culture to backwater China to the Yanamami in South America. By doing good to others I should be able to hope for and even expect the same will be done to/for me. Without reciprocity any society falls apart. Whether government-subsidised welfare for citizens or religious-based "alms for the poor", all societies recognise how imperative it is to provide for all members, though some more than others. Here in Germany I really don't have to worry too much about medical care, insurance and the cost of medicine.<BR/><BR/>What burden of proof? Under my simple morals, everyone benefits and not just those who are in such dire straits that they're willing to accept whatever preconditions you impose (belief in your deity) in order to receive any sort of help from them. That's hardly charity; it's coersion. Would now be a bad time to mention that I ended up homeless in the US for a short while, and that while there were various organisations offering assistance of some sort or another, it was only the Christian groups who demanded a couple hours of absolute acceptance of their beliefs before they would consider offering such help in the form of food or a cot? Even the Krishnas only asked that you be quiet for 30 seconds as they made their offering prior to eating. The "musical" festivities afterwards were optional. <BR/><BR/><I>but I question the basis of [Hindi/Shinto/communist] morality, as I question yours</I><BR/>And I've explained it. You've utterly failed to explain the basis of your "morality" considering the fact that you outright fail to adhere to many of the precepts expressed in the professed basis. According to your "basis" slavery is perfectly acceptable. Luke acknowledges not only that slavery exists but that humans are God's slaves who he continually beats. Genesis makes it clear that it's better to hand your two virgin daughters to an angry crowd be gang-raped rather than to let them at your house guest. This is what you are claiming to be the basis of your morals. <BR/><BR/>One of the 10 Commandments is to "Honour your mother and father" and yet Matthew 10:21 says ""Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Are these your morals? What do you do here? <BR/><BR/>Even if you say your parents are posessed by Satan and have turned away from "The Lord", the commandments don't make exceptions. They say, "Honour your mother and father". Nothing less, nothing more. You can't honour your parents by turning away from them, and according to biblical law, your turning away from them requires you to be stoned to death. Your failure to turn away from them should have you put to death. What do you do?<BR/><BR/><I>Why do you call anything good? There is no good or evil unless there is a moral standard already in place.</I><BR/>We, as a society, determine "good" and "bad". As I've already shown, various acceptable mores in your book are not "good" in our society. No sane person is calling for stoning to death any man or woman who wears a cotton-poly blend T-shirt. Since there are clear examples of "morals" which you do not accept, your book is not the standard upon which our morals -- or even yours -- are based.<BR/><BR/>I'm just going to call "Godwin" on your Nazi sentence. That's really beneath you.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>A "sense of moral obligation" is an irrational sense, isn't it? </I><BR/>No, as I've already stated. My long-term selfish interestes are served by such short-term sacrifices.<BR/><BR/><I>Try convincing a sociopath of that feeling.</I><BR/>A sociopath is, by definition, one who doesn't subscribe to -- or even understand -- any general social benefit ideas, nor does he have empathetic feelings.<BR/><BR/><I>But of course you realize that the said deity will be judging your "good against bad" based on that deity's standards and not upon yours, don't you?</I><BR/>Which deities demand things that, on the grand scale, go against societal security? I mean besides yours (Matthew 10:21 again). And what of all the deities which you ignore and deride as myth? What happens if one of the other religions was right and when you die, instead of facing the Abrahamic God you're face-to-face with Baal? How can you be sure yours is the correct one when others are so equally sure theirs is the correct one and yours is nonsensical? Because your book says so? Theirs does, too.<BR/><BR/><I>And who are you to say that the deity's morality is wrong and yours is right? Who made you God?</I><BR/>Being willing to kill your child because some vioice told you to is wrong, at least in our society, and I've given the examples already. Yet it's par for the course in the Bible. I wasn't on any of the juries which conviceted the referenced women who killed their kids because "God told them to", and I'd wager that no fewer than 80% of the jury members who did convict these women considered themselves Christian. Yet by convicting the women these jurors strayed from their own professed beliefs. Who are they to question what God told these women to do? <BR/><BR/>I'm curious about what you think should have happened to the women? Should they not have been convicted because of their claims that God told them to kill their kids? Are you fit to determine whether thesy were truly called upon by the Lord to do something unpleasant for some "greater good"? Or were they just delusional? How do YOU make that determination? Who are YOU to judge your own deity? And if those women were delusional, it's a safe assumption that the rest of us would also declare you delusionaal if you were you to claim God had spoken to you. You would deny this as much as those women who killed their kids did. It takes more certainty and determination that I'm betting you have to go ahead and murder your own kids. Only faith can get someone to do something that horrendous.<BR/><BR/>##<BR/><BR/>Steve said: <I>It’s a mark of your moral frivolity that you don’t even bother to cite chapter and verse.</I><BR/><BR/>No, it's a mark of your ignorance and unfamiliarity with the book you supposedly base your morals on. If you want to be petty, fine. Here you go:<BR/><BR/><B>slavery:</B> Ephesians 6:5, Colossians 3:22, 1 Peter 2:18, Exodus 21:7-8, etc.<BR/><B>rape:</B> Numbers 31:15-18<BR/><B>murder:</B> Mark 7:9-10, Luke 10:10-15, Acts 3:23 (with ref. to Deut. 18:18-19)<BR/><B>pillage:</B> Dt. 3:3-7<BR/><B>incest:</B> Gen. 19:30-38<BR/><B>bigamy:</B> Gen. 26:34, 28:9, 1Tim. 3:2 <BR/><B>genocide:</B> Dt. 3:3, 1 Sam.15:2-3, Num. 21:34-35<BR/><BR/>Happy?<BR/><BR/>And before you trot out the old "The Old Testament doesn't count" argument, The New Testament is based in the OT, doesn't reject it, and even references it. <BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Hebrews: 10:28-29: Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus.</I><BR/><BR/><I>Matthew 5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.</I><BR/><BR/><I>Mark 7:9-10: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (7:9-10)<BR/>"Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.<BR/><BR/>"For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:</I><BR/>(See Ex. 21:15, Lev. 20:9, Dt. 21:18-21)<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>> But under OT law, some death penalties could be commuted.<BR/>Is it "moral frivolity" that prevented you citing where death sentences could be and were commuted? Leviticus is pretty clear on the subject.<BR/><BR/>> I have no inherent problem with [capital punishment for adulturers and others].<BR/>You are truly a scary man if you believe that consenting adults should be <I>killed</I> for doing that which we by nature do. It's <A HREF="" REL="nofollow" HTTP://WWWNEW.TOWSON.EDU/MAIN/RESEARCH/RESEARCHHIGHLIGHTS/FORTHEBIRDS.ASP HREF?>not just humans</A>.<BR/><BR/>>how does that constitute an argument for the moral superiority of your own value-judgments?<BR/>I never claimed that mine were better. I dispute your claim that the Bible provides a moral code to which Christians adhere and that the Bible's morals are necessary to a moral society.<BR/><BR/>Don't go twisting my words or this argument around. You and Paul claim the Bible is a moral authority. You then discount the OT as an authority and call it the "limits". Only a few sentences later you trollishly state that I've claimed my morals are superior when the sdiscussion had nothing to do with my morals, only the fact that so-called "Christian morals" do not come out of the Bible, and for those which can be found in the Bible, these are equally found in non-Christian societies.<BR/><BR/>> You have no grasp of narrative theology in general...<BR/>> “Hate” is hyperbolic...<BR/><BR/>Did you move the goalposts again? You did. Admit it. Every time you get called out on the contents of the Bible -- the True Word Of God Himself -- you claim that a particular passage is only hyperbole. Or Allegory. Or parable. Then you call me ignorant because YOU, Steve, choose to <I>interpret</I> certain passages as such while others claim those same passages are literal. <BR/><BR/>>Actually, there’s quite a lot of immorality in communism and Eastern religion.<BR/><BR/>Please be so kind as to cite the immoralities in communism and Eastern religions. <BR/><BR/>>But, due to common grace, many unbelievers retain a remnant of common decency.<BR/>>They frequently live above their creed.<BR/><BR/>Unlike Christians, what their book says to do and what they do in the name of their religion [*cough*crusades*cough*burning*witches*cough*<A HREF="http://www.christiantoday.com/article/god.hates.virginia.tech.funeral.picketers.outrage.america/10469.htm" REL="nofollow">heckle*funerals</A>*cough]<BR/><BR/>ADD? Communism is not Stalinism is not Maoism, troll. Stick to the topic.<BR/><BR/>Western morals do not come from the Bible. The Bible is unnecessary for a person to live a moral life.ReallyEvilCaninehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08480577328000541611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-75142129010944668142007-04-21T22:09:00.000-04:002007-04-21T22:09:00.000-04:00Paul wrote:Controlling all the details of His plan...Paul wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>Controlling all the details of His plan. Holman may not like this, but God ordained that Seung-Hui would do this.</I><BR/><BR/>And this is the money shot. An atheist somewhere else pointed out this sick sentence, and Paul tried to refute it by mentioning compatibilism. <BR/><BR/>But compatibilism does nothing to remove God's responsibility from his ordainment of this atrocity. It merely makes it a partnership-in-crime. <BR/><BR/>And even if we assume that Paul is right, and God truly isnt to "blame" for this even though He preordained it, this explanation is quite piss poor at satisfying any not-yet-Christian's skepticism, especially if they "have any philosophy training, at all" :P<BR/><BR/>No wonder pews are emptying so fast nowadays. Nobody buys these kinds of explanations anymore.Aaron Kinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12059982934663353474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-59981280391252802332007-04-21T22:04:00.000-04:002007-04-21T22:04:00.000-04:00Anonymous,Thank you for your relentless defense of...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/><I>Thank you for your relentless defense of the Faith, and for delivering the Truth of the Gospel in "times like these" when so many are desperate for it! God Bless!</I><BR/><BR/>Sadly, its not helping.Aaron Kinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12059982934663353474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-80971833348191393742007-04-20T14:47:00.000-04:002007-04-20T14:47:00.000-04:00Daniel,I didn' make any comments about your privat...Daniel,<BR/><BR/>I didn' make any comments about your private blog site.<BR/><BR/>I was simply pointing out that it has been *the atheists* who have used this to vent about Christianity.<BR/><BR/>So, I'm just making sure that you note that we here have simply *responded* to people's poor criticisms.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your support in noting that it is the DC crew, and not us, who have exhibited poor taste.<BR/><BR/>~PMErrorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1261093267094812142007-04-20T12:14:00.000-04:002007-04-20T12:14:00.000-04:00Daniel said:---Perhaps I should qualify the above ...Daniel said:<BR/>---<BR/>Perhaps I should qualify the above response to Peter re morality and science. I think studying the moral sense and the formation of moral concepts is a natural enterprise. However, I think that moral truths can only be established philosophically and not empirically. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Hey, miracles happen daily...we agree on something :-)<BR/><BR/>Of course the next step would be to ask you what, exactly, you ground your philosophical concepts of morality in.<BR/><BR/>After all, philosophical concepts make truth-statements about the world; and if your moral philosophy is at odds with your scientific philosophy (that is, if your morality requires the world to be a certain way that is contradictory to "science") then you have a consistency issue.<BR/><BR/>So, since we both agree that science cannot provide a rational method for morality, what does (in your worldview)?<BR/><BR/>Daniel said:<BR/>---<BR/>My purpose in writing on this thread was to ask Peter why he disparages "evolutionary ethics" when it is an obvious fallacy to say that natural laws are "what ought to be" rather than "just" what is.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>But of course my argument wasn't addressing you specifically; it was addressing those who <I>do</I> hold to evolutionary ethics. It only addresses you insofar as your ethical worldview conflicts with your evolutionary understanding. Since you haven't given us your ethical worldview (although in the past you've mentioned such things as Platonism as possibilities), then the application of it to your position would be something you'd have to do, not me.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, we both have said the same thing: those who believe solely in "science" and who maintain that they can only live by "science" have no basis for morality; which was my point. Under that system, there was nothing wrong with what happened at Virginia Tech.<BR/><BR/>Daniel said:<BR/>---<BR/>As a side note, I've made my blogsite private because I am applying for jobs and thought it wise, so please refrain from the disparaging comments like you made aboutexapologist and exbeliever for doing so. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Your blog is your blog. You have my permission to do what you want with it :-D<BR/><BR/>If I were to accidentally say something (such as, oh, "I don't know why you'd be worried about potential employers reading your blog unless you thought they might find your thinking irrational"), well that's just punditry anyway. :-)Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1434721782479130182007-04-20T11:15:00.000-04:002007-04-20T11:15:00.000-04:00Paul,I scratched my head a bit and read your comme...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I scratched my head a bit and read your comment a few times.<BR/><BR/>My purpose in writing on this thread was to ask Peter why he disparages "evolutionary ethics" when it is an obvious fallacy to say that natural laws are "what ought to be" rather than <B>"just" what is</B>.<BR/><BR/>I didn't write to criticize you for responding to Joe.<BR/><BR/>And, I let my feelings on the matter be known at DC as well:<BR/><A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/04/lessons-of-cho-seung-hui-killings.html#c6684963099092487814" REL="nofollow">in this comment</A> --<BR/><I>At 6:50 AM, April 20, 2007, Daniel said...<BR/><BR/> For the record, I'm really tired of everyone, and I mean <B>everyone</B> using this tragedy as a means to advance their arguments. Christians, NRA members, gun control advocates, atheists, etc., etc., etc.,</I> ad nauseum.<BR/><BR/><I>Single events like this are completely unnecessary to make a point -- tragedy is everywhere, all the time, but people are moved mindlessly to use single examples by the media spotlighting them. 25,000 people starve to death every day. 200 people were killed in Baghdad in a single day right when this happened at VT. Pick any random terrible thing to hone in on, people. Why this?<BR/><BR/>-Daniel<BR/>VT alum '04</I><BR/><BR/>As a side note, I've made my blogsite private because I am applying for jobs and thought it wise, so please refrain from the disparaging comments like you made about<A HREF="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2007/04/running-scared.html" REL="nofollow">exapologist</A> and <A HREF="http://www2.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515" REL="nofollow">exbeliever</A> for doing so.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-29997896789752373702007-04-20T09:21:00.000-04:002007-04-20T09:21:00.000-04:00Danny,And yet here you are *responding.* It is cl...Danny,<BR/><BR/>And yet here you are *responding.* It is clear then that you agree that the ones who *respond* are not "using this" to their "advantage."<BR/><BR/>~PMErrorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86437299025301826772007-04-20T08:12:00.000-04:002007-04-20T08:12:00.000-04:00Perhaps I should qualify the above response to Pet...Perhaps I should qualify the above response to Peter re morality and science. I think studying the moral sense and the formation of moral concepts is a natural enterprise. However, I think that moral truths can only be established philosophically and not empirically.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18029206790461601832007-04-20T06:27:00.000-04:002007-04-20T06:27:00.000-04:00Peter,But this means, ipso facto, there cannot be ...Peter,<BR/><BR/><I>But this means, ipso facto, there cannot be anything "scientific" about morality. Science alone cannot provide a complete worldview.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree.<BR/><BR/>Paul,<BR/><BR/>I have mentioned my aversion to using this tragedy to anyone's "advantage" on a few boards, not only to Christians. Honestly, I didn't know Joe wrote that until I came here and read your response to it.<BR/><BR/>Christians and atheists (and everyone else, apparently) have both tried to use this to their collective "advantage" in arguing that it proves some point on their bullet-list. I can't even feign outrage about it, I'm just kind of reacting in a somewhat cynical, expected-these-reactions-to-happen, tired fashion.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-49015977277959537522007-04-19T23:26:00.000-04:002007-04-19T23:26:00.000-04:00Daniel: "To be honest, I'd rather we all wait a wh...Daniel: "To be honest, I'd rather we all wait a while before using VT as a new pawn on the chess board of debate."<BR/><BR/>I agree as well. But why is it that it is only the atheists who have been using the events as excuses to attack Christians. My posts would not have been written if theirs had not. But, they can't go unanswered. Bad thinking must be corrected. And, people might buy into their shoddy arguments.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, perhaps you could let *the atheists* know this?<BR/><BR/>I wonder why it has been *them* who have used VT as a spring board? Perhaps it's because they really don't care? It's hard to care about bags of meat, isn't it?Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15089863491306159012007-04-19T22:17:00.000-04:002007-04-19T22:17:00.000-04:00REALLYEVILCANINE SAID:“I'll make it relatively sho...REALLYEVILCANINE SAID:<BR/><BR/>“I'll make it relatively short, taking that last fallacious point that you keep waving: we do not derive our morals from scripture. Those bits which are in the scriptures are those we pick and choose, having rejected the majority (slavery, rape, murder, pillage, incest, bigamy, genocide, etc.).”<BR/><BR/>i) It’s a mark of your moral frivolity that you don’t even bother to cite chapter and verse. Due to your lack of specificity, there’s nothing specific to rebut.<BR/><BR/>ii) BTW, what do you, as an atheist, think is wrong with bigamy? Do you think a man should be a virgin on his wedding night? Do you believe in monogamy? Based on what?<BR/><BR/>“Scripture is full of ‘morals’ which we don't accept...”<BR/><BR/>i) The law of God is never unjust. But OT law isn’t setting an ethical ideal. Rather, its function is pretty minimalistic and essentially negative: to proscribe the outer bounds of socially acceptable behavior. Of what will or will not be tolerated. <BR/><BR/>ii) You also make the ignorant mistake (see below) of assuming that Biblical narrative is automatically prescriptive. <BR/><BR/>“Which you don't even accept.”<BR/><BR/>I would accept it if I were a Jew living under the Mosaic Covenant. <BR/><BR/>There are both continuities and discontinuities between OT ethics and NT ethics.<BR/><BR/>To a certain extent some (but not all) OT laws are geared to the socioeconomic conditions of the ANE. So it’s necessary to *exegete* Scripture, and not merely *quote* it. There’s a fair amount of carryover between OT and NT ethics, but this needs to be examined on a case-by-case basis.<BR/><BR/>“Would you execute disobedient children?”<BR/><BR/>“Children?” No. But, of course, the law has reference to incorrigible juvenile delinquents (young adults, not “children”).<BR/><BR/>“Would you stone to death any new bride who couldn't prove she was a virgin if her husband pronounced himself unsatisfied with her?”<BR/><BR/>Several issues here:<BR/><BR/>i) The fact that certain offenses were classified as capital crimes doesn’t mean the death penalty was automatically carried out. We have, for instance, exactly such an example in the case of the Virgin Mary. But she was never executed. Joseph was under no obligation to have her stoned to death.<BR/><BR/>A death sentence prescribes an appropriate punishment. But under OT law, some death penalties could be commuted.<BR/><BR/>ii) Certain aspects of Deut 22 are bound up with the socioeconomic system of ancient Israel (e.g. betrothal, the dowry, the laws of inheritance in a tribal society). So some OT laws need to be recontextualized. <BR/><BR/>iii) But I don’t rule out execution for adultery simply because that may be offensive to your politically correct and culturally-conditioned sensibilities.<BR/><BR/>“The following offences merit the death penalty: cursing your parents; committing adultery; making love to your stepmother or your daughter-in-law; homosexuality; marrying a woman and her daughter; bestiality; and working on the sabbath.”<BR/><BR/>i) Except for Sabbath-breaking, I have no inherent problem with this.<BR/><BR/>ii) As for Sabbath-keeping, the Sabbath was one of the covenant signs of membership in the OT theocracy. Hence, Sabbath-breaking was a breach of covenant. <BR/><BR/>It is not a covenant sign of membership in the Church. Hence, Sabbath-breaking doesn’t have the same significance under the New Covenant.<BR/><BR/>That doesn’t mean that Sabbath-breaking is inconsequential, but it has been demoted.<BR/><BR/>I’d add that all you’ve done thus far is to express your personal disapproval. But how does that constitute an argument for the moral superiority of your own value-judgments?<BR/><BR/>“In Judges 11 Jephthah made a bargain with God…Kill your child because you made a promise to God to do so. We don't allow that these days. Ask Andrea Yates, Deanna Laney and Dena Schlosser. This is the moral code of the Bible.”<BR/><BR/>i) This example reflects your self-reinforcing ignorance. You have no grasp of narrative theology in general, much less the design of Judges—the function of which is to chart the downward spiral of Israel. If you bothered to consult a standard commentary such as Daniel Block’s, you wouldn’t be citing an episode from Judges as if the Book of Judges were morally prescriptive when, in fact, it’s just the opposite—a testimony to the lurid decadence of Israel during this period of her history.<BR/><BR/>***QUOTE***<BR/><BR/>'If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.' -- Luke 14:26<BR/><BR/>Right. Very loving and moral. It doesn't say ignore, it says hate.<BR/><BR/>***END-QUOTE***<BR/><BR/>Are you trying to be obtuse?<BR/><BR/>“Hate” is hyperbolic, and the point of the passage is not about Christians disowning their families, but about non-Christian families disowning their Christian members. <BR/><BR/>This was a time and place when you were expected to carry on the family religion. If you didn’t, you would be disowned. <BR/><BR/>So the point of the passage is, What should a convert to the Christian faith do in case his family forces the issue? Makes him choose between his Lord and his family?<BR/><BR/>In that event, his spiritual allegiance takes priority over his familial or tribal or ethnic allegiance.<BR/><BR/>“Would you call the Hindis of India amoral? The believers of Shinto in Japan amoral? What about the godless communist villagers spread across the vast regions of China?”<BR/><BR/>Actually, there’s quite a lot of immorality in communism and Eastern religion. But, due to common grace, many unbelievers retain a remnant of common decency. They frequently live above their creed.<BR/><BR/>That said, do you really think that communism is a textbook example of secular ethics? What about Stalinism? The cultural revolution under Mao? The Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge? Or North Korea?<BR/><BR/>What about Hindu ethics? What about those ancient war epics with their warrior code? What about suttee? What about female infanticide?<BR/><BR/>What about Japanese ethics? What about its warrior culture? What about the Shogunate? What about the Japanese Mafia? What about the rape of Nanking?<BR/><BR/>“We are social animals and we benefit by helping others.”<BR/><BR/>A platitude which quickly breaks down in a lifeboat situation.<BR/><BR/>“The majority arrive due to a sense of moral obligation to help their fellow man.”<BR/><BR/>And what’s’ the source and standard of your “sense of moral obligation.”<BR/><BR/>“In short, I have yet to meet a Christian more christian than I.”<BR/><BR/>And what’s your sample group? Are you a churchgoer?<BR/><BR/>In any event, there’s more to being a Christian than being a do-gooder.<BR/><BR/>“I would hope that, should it turn out that there is some super deity, be it God or Baal or Isis or Zeus or O_in, that when s/he weighs up my good against bad, I'll be allowed into Valhalla or Heaven or the Pasta Zone on the strengths of my actions despite my lack of fawning subservience due to that which made logical sense to a creature designed to use his free will and thought.”<BR/><BR/>Nothing fails like false hope.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19997988141202756182007-04-19T21:54:00.000-04:002007-04-19T21:54:00.000-04:00Daniel said:---No, I wasn't judging the rationalit...Daniel said:<BR/>---<BR/>No, I wasn't judging the rationality/truth-value of eugenics, special or general relativity, or thermodynamics. I was saying no rational case can be made to use natural laws and descriptions of scientific theories as the basis of our "oughts". That's all.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>1) Thanks for clarifying.<BR/><BR/>2) I completely agree with your second sentence. There is no rational scientific case for any "oughts" (in the moral sense).<BR/><BR/>3) But this means, ipso facto, there cannot be anything "scientific" about morality. Science alone cannot provide a complete worldview. Thus, the atheist who would claim to live his life based on science is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that). :-)<BR/><BR/>4) This leaves the atheist with at least one non-scientific philosophical belief system, for which is seem highly hypocritical to say other philosophical systems of morality are wrong because they are "unscientific."<BR/><BR/>So with all that in mind, I think your comments with their clarifications do more to argue for the Christian than against him.<BR/><BR/>Daniel said:<BR/>---<BR/>It seems clear that you are trying to rationalize the rightness of this along survival of the fittest lines.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Actually I was demonstrating the opposite. I was showing how, given the worldview of evolution the the logic of that system, any concept of morality is bogus. This is why I concluded my paragraph by saying, "Moralizing this--calling it a 'tragedy'--has no place in evolution."<BR/><BR/>Surely, given your above statements about the insufficiency of science to provide a rational morality, you actually must agree with me when I say that moralizing Virginia Tech (and calling it a "tragedy" is a moralization) has <I>no place</I> in evolution.<BR/><BR/>Since that was my point, and since it appears you agree with my point, again I ask why the response?<BR/><BR/>Daniel said:<BR/>---<BR/>To be honest, I'd rather we all wait a while before using VT as a new pawn on the chess board of debate.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>You and I agree here as well.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-61655962650250261042007-04-19T20:48:00.000-04:002007-04-19T20:48:00.000-04:00Peter,No, I wasn't judging the rationality/truth-v...Peter,<BR/><BR/>No, I wasn't judging the rationality/truth-value of eugenics, special or general relativity, or thermodynamics. I was saying no rational case can be made to use natural laws and descriptions of scientific theories as the basis of our "oughts". That's all.<BR/><BR/>Your critique assumes that evolution is what <I>ought</I> to happen, quote,<BR/><I>Shake up Cho, he explodes. So what? He's removed himself from the gene pool. No more problem there. And those he killed...well, they were just too weak to survive in this hostile world. The cold, cruel march of evolution must procede.<BR/><BR/>Nature red in tooth and claw. You cannot evolve without death. Without competition, there is no pruning the weak; without struggle, there is no strength. Moralizing this--calling it a "tragedy"--has no place in evolution.</I><BR/><BR/>It seems clear that you are trying to rationalize the <B>rightness</B> of this along survival of the fittest lines. All I'm pointing out is that this is qualitatively little different from saying,<BR/><BR/>"Well, I set her on fire, sure, but <B>it was just</B> the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics! Heat flowed from the warmer object to the colder! It was no tragedy!" Ditto with any scientific "justification" of a moral horror.<BR/><BR/>To be honest, I'd rather we all wait a while before using VT as a new pawn on the chess board of debate. But it seems the floodgates have already been opened.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-12592610281280391722007-04-19T18:03:00.000-04:002007-04-19T18:03:00.000-04:00reallevilcanine asked:---Kudos for your restraint ...reallevilcanine asked:<BR/>---<BR/>Kudos for your restraint on comment deletion, but what exactly are you calling "shallow"? <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Your understanding of Christianity, your arguments against it, and your stated worldview all come to mind.<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/>---<BR/>I've given numerous examples of morals we most certainly do not hold which are clearly defined in and demanded by scripture.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Except you didn't. You gave a list of things that included commands to an Israeli theocracy, a faithful telling of an historical event, and verses ripped from context.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, you've given no basis for your own morals. Even if we stipulate for the sake of argument that everything you claimed about Christianity was true, why should we care about your version of morality? You have a burden of proof to bear too.<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/>---<BR/>Would you call the Hindis of India amoral? The believers of Shinto in Japan amoral? What about the godless communist villagers spread across the vast regions of China?<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>No, they have morality (as you do); but I question the basis of their morality, as I question yours. Those who do not have a transcendent moral standard to appeal to have no basis for asserting their morality. At most, it's mere opinion.<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/>---<BR/>Good people will do good, book or no book.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Which begs the question. Why do you call anything good? There is no good or evil unless there is a moral standard already in place.<BR/><BR/>No, what you must say is that people will do actions, book or no book. You cannot judge their actions good or evil without justifying your moral position.<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/>---<BR/>We are social animals and we benefit by helping others.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Oh, is that all it takes? The Nazis figured they could benefit by killing off the Jews. Why was the position wrong?<BR/><BR/>Benefit alone is not moral. I doubt even you would disagree with that. Thus, this "standard" is insufficent to provide morality.<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/>---<BR/>While some are drawn to such scenes by their religious views in subservience to some deity with the hope that such action might offset their sins, the majority arrive due to a sense of moral obligation to help their fellow man. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>But there is no "obligation" to help anyone. A "sense of moral obligation" is an irrational sense, isn't it? Without a reason for your morality, you are simply saying that this "magic" feeling occurs and causes people to do good.<BR/><BR/>But when the "magic" feeling isn't there and these people do "bad" instead, why is that wrong? What if someone caused the disaster? Why would s/he be judged as immoral while those who helped clean it up be considered moral?<BR/><BR/>Just your feeling?<BR/><BR/>Try convincing a sociopath of that feeling.<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/>---<BR/>I would hope that, should it turn out that there is some super deity, be it God or Baal or Isis or Zeus or Oðin, that when s/he weighs up my good against bad, I'll be allowed into Valhalla or Heaven or the Pasta Zone on the strengths of my actions despite my lack of fawning subservience due to that which made logical sense to a creature designed to use his free will and thought. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>But of course you realize that the said deity will be judging your "good against bad" based on <I>that deity's standards</I> and not upon yours, don't you?<BR/><BR/>And who are you to say that the deity's morality is wrong and yours is right? Who made you God?Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-9710350617490682592007-04-19T17:14:00.000-04:002007-04-19T17:14:00.000-04:00Kudos for your restraint on comment deletion, but ...Kudos for your restraint on comment deletion, but what exactly are you calling "shallow"? Please elaborate. I have lots of time; my employer pays me handsomely to sit in front of a few computers and wait as our software slowly installs and runs as I test it. I've given numerous examples of morals we most certainly do not hold which are clearly defined in and demanded by scripture.<BR/><BR/>Would you call the Hindis of India amoral? The believers of Shinto in Japan amoral? What about the godless communist villagers spread across the vast regions of China? <BR/><BR/>Good people will do good, book or no book. We are social animals and we benefit by helping others. Why do people -- religious and non-religious alike -- flock to scenes of utter destruction to help out? Have you ever personally helped out at a disaster site? Lifted broken concrete? Filled sandbags? I have. <BR/><BR/>While some are drawn to such scenes by their religious views in subservience to some deity with the hope that such action might offset their sins, the majority arrive due to a sense of moral obligation to help their fellow man. I do such things with no expectations, but at the same time the hope that someone would do the same for me or my loved ones. Therein lies -- I admit -- a selfishness, but it's far removed from the reality of the present. I receive neither payment nor promise, but it allows me hope. And that hope comes without any supernatural being.<BR/><BR/>I am an atheist. I don't believe in that which is written in the book you profess to believe in despite failing to follow it to the letter. I find nothing but fault in it. Yet I help people despite my curmudgeonly exterior. I direct annoying tourists. I fix people's flat tires. I feed homeless people on the street (don't give money; offer a meal at a nearby restaurant. Those who accept the food aren't playing games). I've let strangers in need sleep in my apartment.<BR/><BR/>I helped a blind woman this morning and gave good advice on helping the blind in my blog entry today, a blog I basically use to vent my anger at humanity in general and our customers specifically. In short, I have yet to meet a Christian more christian than I. I would hope that, should it turn out that there is some super deity, be it God or Baal or Isis or Zeus or Oðin, that when s/he weighs up my good against bad, I'll be allowed into Valhalla or Heaven or the Pasta Zone on the strengths of my actions despite my lack of fawning subservience due to that which made logical sense to a creature designed to use his free will and thought.ReallyEvilCaninehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08480577328000541611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-80501802363975235662007-04-19T13:56:00.000-04:002007-04-19T13:56:00.000-04:00Frank Walton, you sound like a redneck douchebag. ...Frank Walton, you sound like a redneck douchebag. Get real. We pray for souls on a matter of eternity, not joy for someone 'burning in hell'. We find peace that God's glory was somehow increased in the midst of this, even in suffering, and even in Cho's wild act and suicide. <BR/><BR/>An eternal perspective doesn't include your sense of human retribution and your shenanigans.Recession proof.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01548579736244324343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-42947964464231472432007-04-19T13:53:00.000-04:002007-04-19T13:53:00.000-04:00reallyevilcanine said:---Holman left your comment ...reallyevilcanine said:<BR/>---<BR/>Holman left your comment in his blog up; I'll be surprised if mine don't disappear here within an hour. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Why bother deleting that which shows everyone how shallow the response to Christianity is?<BR/><BR/>By the way, all your objections in your comments have already been answered repeatedly. The search feature on the blog will help you out there. That is, if you <I>actually want to know</I> what the response is instead of just wanting to emote.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50989116905714106782007-04-19T13:46:00.000-04:002007-04-19T13:46:00.000-04:00I'll make it relatively short, taking that last fa...I'll make it relatively short, taking that last fallacious point that you keep waving: we do <I>not</I> derive our morals from scripture. Those bits which are in the scriptures are those we pick and choose, having rejected the majority (slavery, rape, murder, pillage, incest, bigamy, genocide, etc.).<BR/><BR/>Scripture is full of "morals" which we don't accept... which <I>you</I> don't even accept. Would you execute disobedient children? Would you stone to death any new bride who couldn't prove she was a virgin if her husband pronounced himself unsatisfied with her? The bible says to do exactly this, and says so repeatedly.<BR/><BR/>The following offences merit the death penalty: cursing your parents; committing adultery; making love to your stepmother or your daughter-in-law; homosexuality; marrying a woman and her daughter; bestiality; and working on the sabbath.<BR/><BR/>In Judges 11 Jephthah made a bargain with God that if he would guarantee Jephthah's victory over the Ammonites, Jephthah would sacrifice a burnt offering of 'whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return'. Jephthah did indeed defeat the Ammonites ('with a very great slaughter') and he returned home victorious. His daughter and only child, came out of the house to greet him (with timbrels and dances) and - alas - she was the first living thing to do and not, as he might have expected, his dog.<BR/><BR/>Kill your child because you made a promise to God to do so. We don't allow that <A HREF="http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/12/slain.children/" REL="nofollow">these days</A>. Ask Andrea Yates, Deanna Laney and Dena Schlosser. This is the moral code of the Bible.<BR/><BR/><I>'If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.' -- Luke 14:26</I><BR/><BR/>Right. Very loving and moral. It doesn't say <I>ignore</I>, it says <I>hate</I>.<BR/><BR/>Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg said, 'Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.'<BR/><BR/>Holman left your comment in his blog up; I'll be surprised if mine don't disappear here within an hour.ReallyEvilCaninehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08480577328000541611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-84728504572774628102007-04-19T10:22:00.000-04:002007-04-19T10:22:00.000-04:00Whoa!I think we just found the ethics professor fo...Whoa!<BR/><BR/>I think we just found the ethics professor for the Irrationality Department-Institute of Thought!!!<BR/><BR/>Daniel said:<BR/>---<BR/>And this all proCEEDs under the assumption that "evolution = value" and that "natural laws and orders = moral oughts".<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>No, it's under the <I>fact</I> that a valueless system <I>has no values</I> and there are no moral "oughts" at all under a secular worldview.<BR/><BR/>Daniel said:<BR/>---<BR/>You are implying that evolution needs help, or is our basis for value judgment. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>No, I'm pointing out the logical inconsistencies of yoru value judgments with your belief in evolution.<BR/><BR/>Daniel said:<BR/>---<BR/>You are saying that eugenics is a rational "program" that we ought to subscribe to and use to form values (how to decide what is 'weak' and thus 'deserves' death). Yet no rational case can be made for this any more than for thermodynamics or relativity. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>I don't think Daniel realized what he wrote here. He is equating eugenics with thermodynamics and relativity (I'm assuming scientific relativity, i.e. Einstein), two concepts that are generally accepted by virtually everyone. He then claims that there's no rational basis for any of these. Which of course means there's no rational case for saying anyone who disagrees is wrong.<BR/><BR/>You're saying it's irrational to hold a position on the moral validity of eugenics.<BR/><BR/>Well, I guess that's consistent with a valueless system anyway. But it makes me wonder just why you're disagreeing with anything I wrote then.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28776244645338150552007-04-19T08:21:00.000-04:002007-04-19T08:21:00.000-04:00And those he killed...well, they were just too wea...<I>And those he killed...well, they were just too weak to survive in this hostile world. The cold, cruel march of evolution must procede.<BR/><BR/>Nature red in tooth and claw. You cannot evolve without death. Without competition, there is no pruning the weak; without struggle, there is no strength. Moralizing this--calling it a "tragedy"--has no place in evolution. It's no more a tragedy than when homo sapiens offed the Neaderthals. It was a dispassionate event, nothing more.</I><BR/><BR/>And this all proCEEDs under the assumption that "evolution = value" and that "natural laws and orders = moral oughts". You are implying that evolution needs help, or is our basis for value judgment. You are saying that eugenics is a rational "program" that we ought to subscribe to and use to form values (how to decide what is 'weak' and thus 'deserves' death). Yet no rational case can be made for this any more than for thermodynamics or relativity. <BR/><BR/>And even <A HREF="http://blog.danielmorgan.name/2007/02/darwin-on-eugenics.html" REL="nofollow">Darwin knew it</A>:<BR/><I>With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed. <BR/>The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, <B>without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature</B>. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; <B>but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil</B> [emphasis added].</I>nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86203728755076434572007-04-19T07:23:00.000-04:002007-04-19T07:23:00.000-04:00A much appreciated post.A much appreciated post.Dusmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18050174688923887698noreply@blogger.com