tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6814989621767053332..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: The church of EphesusRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1260013686018142512010-11-05T14:04:25.632-04:002010-11-05T14:04:25.632-04:00Steve, you're right. What's interesting is...Steve, you're right. What's interesting is, if we also do this for OT ecclesiology we see something very interesting.<br /><br />The theology of <i>a covenant people</i> is <b>only</b> ever applied to those Israelites who honoured and obeyed God (in a covenantial sense), <b>the assembly</b> (rather than all Israel).<br /><br />This contrasts with the assumption most hold, that all Israelites were by default covenant people.<br /><br />This should provide insight to Paul's arguments in both <b>[Rom 8]</b>,<b>[Rom 11]</b> and especially <b>[Rom 9:8]</b>.<br /><br />When the new covenant can be clearly seen to be the old covenant perfected, that's fairly strong evidence our understanding is close to correct.<br /><br />(Not only, but more often than not, it solves part of the great theological controversies we've seen debated in the past)ἐκκλησίαhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011648681141436328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58042120541665341012010-11-05T12:13:41.612-04:002010-11-05T12:13:41.612-04:00Yes, we need to distinguish between the meaning of...Yes, we need to distinguish between the meaning of the Greek word, the concept of the "church" in NT ecclesiology, and various conceptions of the church that have developed over the course of church history.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-38326016437707627432010-11-05T10:53:54.461-04:002010-11-05T10:53:54.461-04:00Part of the problem here is that 'church' ...Part of the problem here is that <b>'church'</b> is an English word. The word in Greek was "<b>ἐκκλησία</b>" (<i>ekklēsia</i>) (G1577). Underlying the debate is the question <i>'What was the intended meaning of the Greek word "<b>ekklēsia</b>"?'</i><br /><br />We are projecting theological meaning onto this particular Greek word that wasn't there in the Greek. The word "<b>ἐκκλησία</b>" (<i>ekklēsia</i>) means "<b>assembly</b>" and nothing more.<br /><br />How can this be seen? Apart from the Bible there are 60 million Greek words found in the Oxyrhynchus papyri and the Tebtunis papyri (representing Greek literature from Homer through to 1453 AD). This body of non-Biblical Greek includes the word "<b>ἐκκλησία</b>" (<i>ekklēsia</i>).<br /><br />In every case of its appearance in secular Greek, its meaning has been translated 'assembly' and never 'church'.<br /><br />Thus if a Greek word only assumes some particular meaning outside of Biblical translation, chances are, that is what the word meant in Greek, and its translation is true. If it assumes a different meaning in Biblical translation, chances are that theological meaning is being injected in the translation process, according to the theological tastes of the translator.<br /><br />Although the new covenant literature (NT) was written in Greek, the speakers were Aramaic. The '<b>assembly</b>' idiom, as seen in Aramaic (and Hebrew), is found abundantly in the old covenant literature. <b>[Exo 12:6,16][Num 16:33,47][Ezra 2:64, 10:1,12,14][Neh 7:66]</b> etc etc.<br /><br />There is scarcely an old covenant book that doesn't deal with this idiom of 'the assembly of the Lord' as The congregation of <i>faithful Israelites </i> assembled to worship.<br /><br />Strangely, the old covenant idiom aligns nicely with the actual Greek meaning 'assembly'.<br /><br />So, if we translate <b>ekklēsia</b> as assembly, see how the debate disppears? But if we translate it 'church' and project additional theological meaning onto it, debate occurs precisely because we've strayed away from its intended meaning.<br /><br />What does this mean in terms of Ephesus? Was there an assembly of God believing worshipers there?<br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />Where there God believing worshipers elsewhere?<br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />Can we call all these assemblies one?<br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />Perhaps this is what is meant in <b>[Amos 9:9][Isa 30:28]</b>ἐκκλησίαhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011648681141436328noreply@blogger.com