tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6630473494842287839..comments2024-03-14T14:41:17.663-04:00Comments on Triablogue: “Pope Francis” is on the verge of creating “error and confusion” in one direction or anotherRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14500421227089199122016-03-23T15:57:41.810-04:002016-03-23T15:57:41.810-04:00These are not small changes, either. What seems to...These are not small changes, either. What seems to be coming down the line are changes of historic proportions, at least so far as "Official Rome" is concerned. Rome has "guarded the table", so to speak, very jealously. This is almost their whole identity these days. "The Eucharist" is its one big (it thinks) item of legitimacy. If "The Eucharist" is weakened, everyone might as well become Protestants at that point. John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-87865986956688281242016-03-23T15:41:36.010-04:002016-03-23T15:41:36.010-04:00There are lots of folks both inside and outside th...There are lots of folks both inside and outside the Catholic church who approve of what Francis is doing. They like the fact that he's liberalizing or relaxing traditional prohibitions. But that misses the point. The question is whether an papacy with a big eraser has any credibility as a moral authority. Certain things were supposed to be written in ink. Not penciled in. That's the raison d'etre of a Magisterium. How often can the papacy rewrite the rules before it forfeits its claims? Is it wrong now, or was it wrong then? Either way, it got it wrong. That's the dilemma that Francis poses for the future of Catholicism. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-78584396784226069062016-03-23T15:28:13.411-04:002016-03-23T15:28:13.411-04:00My comment is in response to Colleen, not John. My comment is in response to Colleen, not John. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-48677650045254156302016-03-23T15:27:37.244-04:002016-03-23T15:27:37.244-04:00That's not the issue. The question at issue is...That's not the issue. The question at issue is not whether you think changes in Rome's policy are an improvement. We're not debating the issue on the merits. <br /><br />The question, rather, is whether Rome can reverse course on this issue consistent with its claims to unique divine guidance over the centuries–something that benighted Protestant denominations allegedly lack. You may think admitting remarried couples to communion is fine. Maybe it is. But that's irrelevant. The question at issue is not whether a Protestant thinks that's a good idea, but how much Rome can change established positions without making a mockery of her claims to speak authoritatively in matters of doctrine and ethics. <br /><br />It's like the debate over contraception. The question is not whether a Protestant thinks that should be permissible. That's not the standard of comparison. Rather, it's a question of measuring Rome by her own yardstick. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-55340088243246870112016-03-23T13:08:35.282-04:002016-03-23T13:08:35.282-04:00Colleen, a re-marriage represents an ongoing and u...Colleen, a re-marriage represents an ongoing and unrepentant condition of adultery. John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-9985398281636485362016-03-23T13:05:54.784-04:002016-03-23T13:05:54.784-04:00If God can forgive a murderer he can forgive someo...If God can forgive a murderer he can forgive someone whose marriage has failed, and asks for forgiveness. We strive to live up to Jesus' ideals but we are human and make mistakes. Say your child has done the worst possible act, you would never cast him out you would embrace him and love him even more. God is not some conservative sticking to rigid rules but loves all the sinners.ColleenBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15787772002308663326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14152026890026104572016-03-23T12:11:11.438-04:002016-03-23T12:11:11.438-04:00That wouldn't surprise me. It was almost "...That wouldn't surprise me. It was almost "anything goes" in the years after Vatican II but prior to John Paul II. Rome, post Vatican II, is all about setting up ways to break its own rules, with plausible deniability for itself. That seemed like a cool solution to them at the time of Vatican II -- "let's be 'catholic' and embrace conflicting positions". But now the contradictions are coming home to roost, as they've got a genuine "reformer" in there, who's only interested in expanding his own agenda. Little by little, he is going to open the Rome-specific Pandora's Box, which will take "the faith once delivered" and open it up to all manner of "interpretations". John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-84524431058086122202016-03-23T12:06:27.571-04:002016-03-23T12:06:27.571-04:00In the 1970's my aunt used the"internal f...In the 1970's my aunt used the"internal forum" with her priest and was able to go to communion. This was done prior to John Paul. I don't know why we wouldn't be able to use it again.ColleenBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15787772002308663326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10302681094562219702016-03-22T19:56:46.688-04:002016-03-22T19:56:46.688-04:00Hi Kirk -- there are varying degrees of "doct...Hi Kirk -- there are varying degrees of "doctrine" -- and an infallible "ex cathedra" doctrine is very rare (it seems to me there are only two of these: the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary) -- and so whatever JPII wrote in an encyclical really can be over-ruled by a subsequent pope. So you are right, there are many settled issues that could be up for grabs. ("Development" is always a good place to lay the blame). <br /><br />I'd hesitate to use the term "antiChrist" about any one person, but the papacy itself qualifies as much as anything I could imagine. The whole thing is a racket, set up to self-perpetuate. That's why it's so important to stress the illegitimacy of the whole enterprise, from its 4th century origins. John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90693177218143966972016-03-22T12:33:24.613-04:002016-03-22T12:33:24.613-04:00John, please enlighten me just how one pope can le...John, please enlighten me just how one pope can legally undo the doctrinal decrees of another; if the dodge going to be that Wojtyla didn't explicitly state the teaching to be infallible, then many other allegedly settled issues are up for grabs; if by override, then Bergie violates the vaunted notion of the "spirit of Vatican II;" if national, thaen why not by diocese, because arbitrary lines can be arbitrarily redrawn; if the excuse will be pastoral, then what of the plural marriages of Muslim converts - after all, who wants to break up a marriage and family? By holding fast, he crosses no red lines but further ticks off the sort of people looking for an excuse to leave anyway; he also mollifies the traddies, who he seems more pleased to agitate. Looks like antichrist that man of sin is in a no-win situation.Kirk Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06142889734004402296noreply@blogger.com