tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6379380775996216594..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Teaching, preaching, and authorityRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-51808532724031304042015-05-21T00:02:08.884-04:002015-05-21T00:02:08.884-04:00Since modern law has stripped husbands of any dist...Since modern law has stripped husbands of any distinctive authority, it's hard to give Scriptural guidance.<br /><br />What I'd suggest is that if either spouse consistently shirks their Biblical duties, that's probably grounds for divorce.<br /><br />I'm certainly not suggesting that a wife owes her husband unconditional deference. Husbands need to be wise. In 1 Sam 25, we have an example of a foolish husband and a prudent wife. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-76269716551951624322015-05-20T23:40:31.764-04:002015-05-20T23:40:31.764-04:00Perhaps the critical question on this track is: &q...Perhaps the critical question on this track is: "What scriptural guidance is given to the husband for the case when his wife will not obey?".<br /><br />The cultural environment gave husbands a great deal of latitude in exercising power over their wives, likewise fathers over children, and likewise slaves over masters. As such, the NT writers are likely more concerned with teaching those in authority how to do so in kindness (Eph 5:28, 1 Pet 3:7, also Eph 6:4,9) than to give them permission to wield power.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-48030355144894234962015-05-20T22:51:17.723-04:002015-05-20T22:51:17.723-04:00Also, I think the discussion has gotten off track....Also, I think the discussion has gotten off track. Getting back to the original point, there's a tension in Schreiner's position. He himself has reviewed books by "evangelical feminists." He must read women to review women. He must read egalitarians to refute egalitarians. Does that mean he's learning from a woman? <br /><br />Same thing with the JBMW, which reviews "evangelical feminist" literature from a complementarian perspective. Does that mean women are teaching them? There's a sense in which the women are teaching them what the women think Scripture means. <br /><br />What about countercult ministries that critique the theology of Joyce Meyers or Paula White. They must listen to these women preach to evaluate their theology. Are they submitting to their authority by hearing them preach? How could they critique them without hearing them?<br /><br />What about conservative pundits who critique the legal opinions of Ruth Bader Ginsburg or Elena Kagan. Are they in submission to a woman when they study their legal philosophy? stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-76592138398633815032015-05-20T22:40:53.183-04:002015-05-20T22:40:53.183-04:00In an ancient context, isn't "authority&q...In an ancient context, isn't "authority" meaningless unless there's something to back it up? <br /><br />As far as modern marriage is concerned, since the laws are egalitarian, husbands have no more legal authority than wives. And as a practical matter, the system is tilted against men, so in reality, husbands have less authority than wives. <br /><br />So the question is anachronistic. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-34658633489407549532015-05-20T18:58:43.989-04:002015-05-20T18:58:43.989-04:00I can think of plenty of biblical commands and pro...I can think of plenty of biblical commands and proverbs relating to discipline of children. I can't think of anything similar for husbands and wives. <br /><br />Can you give me an example of what the kind of authority you're talking about would look like in a modern marriage?Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256949774839675735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-30465879699353975562015-05-20T16:40:15.128-04:002015-05-20T16:40:15.128-04:00I don't think think it's merely an advisor...I don't think think it's merely an advisory role. The husband has moral and spiritual authority, but relies on the wife's submission for obedience. In contrast to a child where I would compel obedience if they didn't listen.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256949774839675735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62998488203608009922015-05-20T16:01:38.176-04:002015-05-20T16:01:38.176-04:00i) You seem to be demoting a husband's authori...i) You seem to be demoting a husband's authority to an advisory role. To my knowledge, in the 1C Roman Empire, husbands had far more legal authority than wives. The legal system dealt the husband all the high cards. <br /><br />An exception might be if a high society woman married down. That's kind of like a man who marries the daughter of a Mafia Don. He better watch his step! If she complains to her dad...<br /><br />ii) That also goes to a distinction between legal authority and, say, physical compulsion. If, say, I lose in court, that doesn't mean violence was done to my person. It just means the court didn't back up my claims. So, for instance, I don't get any money from the defendant. I can't make him pay up, because I lost.<br /><br />That's different from him making me pay up. And even then, there are different ways of doing that, like property confiscation, garnishing wages.<br /><br />It isn't pretty, but it isn't necessarily equivalent to violence.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-78517364629263951762015-05-20T15:45:59.374-04:002015-05-20T15:45:59.374-04:00>Are you describing the realities of marriage i...>Are you describing the realities of marriage in the 21C Western world, where husbands have no authority beyond moral authority? If so, you can't simply read that back into 1C marriage. <br /><br />I know that the 1C marriage was not like I describe. That husbands could force their wives to obey. I'm saying such actions are not an essential part of marriage as designed by God.<br /><br />> I'm unclear as to you're claim that a women can't teach within the family. Are you saying a mother can't teach young sons?<br /><br />My sentence was confusing. I was saying a wife can't lead her husband and can't teach in the church. Not that she can't teach in the home.<br /><br />> From a Biblical standpoint, what do you think should happen if husband and wife disagree on, say, child-rearing. Suppose the husband is right. Something has to give. Are you saying the husband's authority doesn't trump the wife's opinion in that situation?<br /><br />I think that it would be sinful for the wife not to submit to her husband in that case. But if she chose to sin the husband does not have the right to compel obedience through violence, intimidation, etc.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256949774839675735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71746316401904659252015-05-20T15:21:52.319-04:002015-05-20T15:21:52.319-04:00From a Biblical standpoint, what do you think shou...From a Biblical standpoint, what do you think should happen if husband and wife disagree on, say, child-rearing. Suppose the husband is right. Something has to give. Are you saying the husband's authority doesn't trump the wife's opinion in that situation? stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-30475151765721863272015-05-20T15:18:20.021-04:002015-05-20T15:18:20.021-04:00Are you describing the realities of marriage in th...Are you describing the realities of marriage in the 21C Western world, where husbands have no authority beyond moral authority? If so, you can't simply read that back into 1C marriage. <br /><br />I'm unclear as to you're claim that a women can't teach within the family. Are you saying a mother can't teach young sons? stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10007492328744788842015-05-20T14:53:10.057-04:002015-05-20T14:53:10.057-04:00That doesn't seem to work with your definition...That doesn't seem to work with your definition of authority. <br /><br />> i) One question is what "authority" meant in the ancient world. To my knowledge, authority meant the power to command or forbid. The wherewithal to enforce compliance.<br /><br />That's not the kind of authority you should have in a Christian marriage. A husband has the God given authority to lead his wife. But he shouldn't attempt to compel compliance if his wife chooses not to submit to him. <br /><br />Why can't the authority of a teacher in the church be similar to the authority of a husband with his wife?<br /><br />I would relate it to headship more than authority. God designed it that men would lead their wives in marriage. Similarly he designed it that men would teach adult men within the church. <br /><br />It's not that women can't lead or teach. It's that doing within the family or church goes against God's design.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256949774839675735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26180890489713309482015-05-20T14:29:28.155-04:002015-05-20T14:29:28.155-04:00I'd add that "teaching" is ambiguous...I'd add that "teaching" is ambiguous, because it's a two-party transaction. To say a woman taught men or a man was taught by a woman can refer to what the woman did, or it can refer to how the student or listener responded.<br /><br />On the one hand it can mean a man learned from a female teacher.<br /><br />On the other hand, it can mean a woman expressed her opinion, but the man disagreed. <br /><br />A listener may be unreceptive to what the teacher has to say.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-40457356819408440712015-05-20T14:06:16.961-04:002015-05-20T14:06:16.961-04:00Because authority is the underlying issue. Unless ...Because authority is the underlying issue. Unless you think a woman teaching men subverts male headship, what's objectionable about it? That's what's supposed to make such teaching objectionable. <br /><br />Schreiner has argued that "the creation of Adam first gives the reason why men should be the authoritative teachers in the church."stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-70816496626866477102015-05-20T13:33:00.241-04:002015-05-20T13:33:00.241-04:00> iii) In that context, I don't see how tea...> iii) In that context, I don't see how teaching is ipso facto wielding authority over another. For instance, I read lots of books and articles by atheists. I do so to critique their arguments.<br /><br />Why are you arguing against teaching having authority? The article separates them. It says that teaching and having authority are forbidden. Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256949774839675735noreply@blogger.com