tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6294517901215866207..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: "Coptic Christians not Christians"Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-13569311867788199272015-02-24T11:57:53.787-05:002015-02-24T11:57:53.787-05:00http://takimag.com/article/our_cute_little_protest...http://takimag.com/article/our_cute_little_protestant_friends_kathy_shaidle<br />this is not about copts but the comments section is outrageous. <br /><br />MDChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544862332782876648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18182022402314418842015-02-23T21:10:48.565-05:002015-02-23T21:10:48.565-05:00@steve - reasonable points. Love thinks what'...@steve - reasonable points. Love thinks what's best. On my reading Hall seems particularly concerned with various SBC and evangelical leaders sending mixed messages on a gospel issue, to wit:<br /><br />Is the Coptic church representative of an unreached people group, or does it represent a denomination of brothers and sisters in Christ like the OPC folks down the street? Hall claims the SBC IMB website has flip-flopped on this question literally overnight.<br /><br />Maybe it's the beginning of ECT redux - "Evangelicals and Coptics Together". <br />CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03231394164372721485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7736725974614093502015-02-23T17:18:25.100-05:002015-02-23T17:18:25.100-05:00...and without needing any help from self-appointe......and without needing any help from self-appointed bouncers at Heaven's gate.Kirk Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06142889734004402296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67524462691603031742015-02-23T13:45:40.438-05:002015-02-23T13:45:40.438-05:00Several issues:
i) Hall accuses Copts of believin...Several issues:<br /><br />i) Hall accuses Copts of believing what they do because that's the ethnic community they were born into. However:<br /><br />a) That cuts both ways. Many Calvinists are Calvinistic because that's how they were raised. That's their ethnic group (or the functional equivalent).<br /><br />b) Given the amount of persecution they've suffered over the centuries at the hands of their Muslim overlords, I find it less likely to say they are Coptic simply out of ethnic loyalty. Consider European Jews who formally converted to Christianity to avoid discrimination. Surely ME Christians are tempted to convert to Islam. <br /><br />c) On top of that, these particular Copts were facing martyrdom. Assuming they were given a choice between martyrdom or conversion to Islam, I find it implausible that they chose martyrdom merely out of deference to their ethnicity.<br /><br />ii) There's a difference between willfully disbelieving revealed truths and not believing revealed truths out of ignorance. I cut ME Christians some slack. "To whom much is given, much is required."<br /><br />From what I can tell, many ME Christian minorities in Muslim countries are living in a theological timewarp. They haven't caught up with the Protestant Reformation. <br /><br />It's like Aquinas. His theology is seriously flawed. But unless God had no remnant, no elect, during the Middle Ages, surely there were some true believers despite the theological baggage. Sovereign grace is sovereign to save men and women with flawed theology. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-35583318258160566792015-02-23T11:06:54.226-05:002015-02-23T11:06:54.226-05:00@MS - I share many of your concerns and I think yo...@MS - I share many of your concerns and I think you make many valid points. Sectarianism can be ugly.<br /><br />I mentioned the Reformers, yet I also mentioned the Apostolic foundation which they labored to uncover from centuries of Romanist accretions.<br /><br />Paul clearly meant something by his numerous teachings on justification, as well as by his anathemas against false teachers.<br /><br />Clearly men are saved by the grace of God in Christ, and He grants faith to His people. I don't know how that plays out on the individual level, but we can evaluate systems of teaching against Scripture on the macro level. I think that's what the original author was trying to do in the linked article.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03231394164372721485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-56677208511747285782015-02-23T07:12:49.355-05:002015-02-23T07:12:49.355-05:00What is Felicitous inconsistency? What is Felicitous inconsistency? Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-24498595981711994272015-02-23T05:47:46.577-05:002015-02-23T05:47:46.577-05:00Lutherans recognize the reality of "felicitou...Lutherans recognize the reality of "felicitous inconsistency;" ie members of false churches like the RCC and the Coptic Orethodox Church can still be Christians. The judgment of charity will have me believe the 21 Copts to be martyrs, given their testimony and death for believing that Christ is who he cliamed to be. Kirk Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06142889734004402296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-77990630780905763372015-02-23T02:15:14.415-05:002015-02-23T02:15:14.415-05:00I'm not sure what those 21 men knew of the Chr...<i>I'm not sure what those 21 men knew of the Christ of Scripture, but it's pretty well known that vast swaths of ME Christendom represent an ancient hodgepodge of apostasy, heresy, and falsehood.</i><br /><br />This reminds me of how Catholics characterize virtually all Christians throughout the early and medieval church based on some doctrinal statements and the beliefs of some bishops. Lay followers of any ideology or belief system don't usually spend a great deal of time thinking about the intricacies of their worldview, and most probably don't have the resources (material or temporal) to navigate those issues in any detail. These people may have been raised in imperfect systems, but it's hard to know the extent to which they internalized these beliefs. However, their (apparent) refusal to convert to Islam under pain of death signals a serious devotion to Jesus Christ.<br /><br />If we are to believe a strict articulation of justification by faith alone is necessary to be saved, we run into problems given that such an articulation did not exist until justification became a major issue in important theological circles, right around the Protestant Reformation. The fact that inaccurate or incomplete views on justification existed before the Reformation does not mean these Christians did not trust Christ completely for their salvation, or at least the direction of their lives was moving ever more toward trust in God.<br /><br />How perfect must one's faith be in order to be saved?Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784922935749497931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-34985468544184047982015-02-22T22:20:23.128-05:002015-02-22T22:20:23.128-05:00On my reading I think the author is primarily conc...On my reading I think the author is primarily concerned with the gospel witness in this matter, and the seeming lack of discernment demonstrated by the various leaders mentioned who appear to have gotten caught up in the raw emotion of the cause du jour. Herd mentality is rarely reflective.<br /><br />I'm not sure what those 21 men knew of the Christ of Scripture, but it's pretty well known that vast swaths of ME Christendom represent an ancient hodgepodge of apostasy, heresy, and falsehood.<br /><br />I certainly hope you're not suggesting that holding to a belief in works-righteousness is a valid expression of Biblical Christian soteriology. The Apostle Paul had much to say on this very important subject, as did the Reformers.<br /><br />I've personally known (and know) a number of devout Romanists, and conclude that they're going to hell lest by God's grace they repent and believe in the Christ of Scripture instead of the false-christ of Romanism.<br /><br />Theology matters.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03231394164372721485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-41602154492234347782015-02-22T22:01:56.350-05:002015-02-22T22:01:56.350-05:00Can Roman Catholics also be called errant brethren...Can Roman Catholics also be called errant brethren Kirk? Or are they the exception?Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39148426184751707912015-02-22T22:01:17.795-05:002015-02-22T22:01:17.795-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89614906316270385562015-02-22T20:12:54.528-05:002015-02-22T20:12:54.528-05:00By their own criteria all SBC'ers who eschew m...By their own criteria all SBC'ers who eschew monergism aren't Christians due to their belief in works-righteousness. I have personally known a number of devout Copts and conclude that they are errant brethren; ie Christians. The original article was sectarian hooey.Kirk Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06142889734004402296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67101945875181054912015-02-22T19:41:34.147-05:002015-02-22T19:41:34.147-05:00I thought the original article made a number of va...I thought the original article made a number of valid points.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03231394164372721485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-76516801275253446852015-02-22T17:40:17.827-05:002015-02-22T17:40:17.827-05:00You see, Obama will be highly pleased by this P&am...You see, Obama will be highly pleased by this P&P post. This couldn't be a case of Muslim-on-Christian violence, since ISIS isn't Muslim and Coptic Christians aren't Christian.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15575282680086883767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68098250555525306132015-02-22T16:28:23.230-05:002015-02-22T16:28:23.230-05:00Not really. Even among themselves, when they call...Not really. Even among themselves, when they call themselves Copts, they're referring to the old church; it's also a separate word in Arabic than "Egyptian". The Protestant ones differentiate themselves by referring to the denomination they belong to. But I should emphasize that they all call themselves Christian by default and not by denomination, as do all ME Christians.<br /><br />SGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12373421930200353769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45643885162200756922015-02-22T15:48:52.311-05:002015-02-22T15:48:52.311-05:00There are many Copts that are part of Evangelical ...There are many Copts that are part of Evangelical Churches. Copt just means Eygptian, it does not mean Copic Oriental Orthodox Church. So it is possible many of those beheaded where all evangelicals. Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.com