tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6283234093844891360..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Outreach Report: Reason Rally 2012Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64899804018113917992012-03-30T17:29:03.557-04:002012-03-30T17:29:03.557-04:00Stone Dead,
"Just because I'm an atheist...Stone Dead,<br /><br /><i>"Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I dislike or disapprove of all religion nor that I entertain myself by taking cheap shots at it."</i><br /><br />This is refreshing to hear. <br /><br /><i>"I did see the crowd gathered around the same Christian signs that you photographed for your blog here. Yes, I admit, I thought you might be Westboro Baptist at first . . ."</i><br /><br />We weren't with those carrying signs except the one held by Sye Tenbruggencate in the above photos. We were with a completely different group called "The Five Hundred". <br /><br /><i>"Many atheists can defend their views. Just because the ones who approached you were not articulate does not mean that more articulate people do not exist, nor that the views themselves cannot be defended."</i><br /><br />There are articulate atheist philosophers, but most of them have nothing to do with organized rants like the Reason Rally. Most atheist philosophers want nothing to do with "hillybilly, fundy atheism" and instead want to pursue and develop their careers as scholars. Some astute atheistic scholars such as Peter Millican have debated Christians like William Lane Craig, but the challenges have been far and few between and when they come, they are always shot through by Christian philosophers, theologians, and scientists. Listen to the most two recent debates between agnostic textual critic Bart Ehrman and Dan Wallace and you'll see what I mean.Dusmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18050174688923887698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-25477059211427011472012-03-29T00:29:00.634-04:002012-03-29T00:29:00.634-04:00(WBC did come, but they were protesting somewhere ...<i> (WBC did come, but they were protesting somewhere else nearby.)</i><br /><br />I hope you're aware they were expressly invited by the Reason Rally's management.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89664756656338658272012-03-29T00:01:25.343-04:002012-03-29T00:01:25.343-04:00I was at the Reason Rally. I could not listen to ...I was at the Reason Rally. I could not listen to many of the speakers, since it sounded like a lot of angry ranting that unfairly characterized religion, so I only lasted a few minutes there. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I dislike or disapprove of all religion nor that I entertain myself by taking cheap shots at it. Instead a friend and I -- I'd call myself an atheist, she wouldn't call herself one -- visited the information tent and made friendly conversation with people about their atheist organizations.<br /><br />I did see the crowd gathered around the same Christian signs that you photographed for your blog here. Yes, I admit, I thought you might be Westboro Baptist at first and my strategy with them is to stay far away, but then I realized your signs looked different. (WBC did come, but they were protesting somewhere else nearby.) So ultimately the reason I dd not approach you was that I didn't want to be subjected to theistic rants any more than I wanted atheistic rants, and even if a polite discussion were possible, I didn't want to be pigeonholed into an "atheist" position in a debate where my interlocutor had already framed the debate for me and assumed what I must believe as an atheist, nor did I want to undergo this rite in front of my friend who didn't necessarily even want to be there and in the midst of a chaotic crowd in the rain. Lastly, since I was raised Jewish, not Christian, if I decided I believed in God I would be more likely to deepen my faith in Judaism rather than in Christianity.<br /><br />Many atheists <i>can</i> defend their views. Just because the ones who approached you were not articulate does not mean that more articulate people do not exist, nor that the views themselves cannot be defended.Tucker Liebermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16686164444086529585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18992738749951236272012-03-28T23:11:28.271-04:002012-03-28T23:11:28.271-04:00That was a great discussion with (I think you call...That was a great discussion with (I think you called him:'Thunderfoot').<br /><br />It's great to challenge. If we, Christians, realize that Christ said: "Out of your bellies will flow river of living water", then we will be prayed up and trust that the Spirit will do just what our lord said.<br />It may be difficult at times, but the "living waters" shall flow.<br />Thanks for walking the straight and narrow, and being the salt out there in a very rotten world, which needs to be salted with the truth in love and grace.<br /><br />I had an atheist friend, who died last May. Had some good discussions, and some not so good, and some bad discussions as well. But at least we talked about life and truth.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-82020586565732745192012-03-28T20:54:46.304-04:002012-03-28T20:54:46.304-04:00Actually I was the one who interacted with PZ Myer...Actually I was the one who interacted with PZ Myers. He was very charming. He smiled a lot. He said, "Is anyone here ridiculing you? They should be!" He meant every word of it. <br /><br />In other words, he was quite amazingly gracious as he delivered an intentionally deep insult. <br /><br />He also told us that the reason he wouldn't attend a church is that he doesn't like to be impolite in public, but he wouldn't be able to be polite in a church.Tom Gilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00620366972933579039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7311756378963791142012-03-28T20:52:24.911-04:002012-03-28T20:52:24.911-04:00Truth Unites,
You asked, "From your vantage ...Truth Unites,<br /><br />You asked, "From your vantage point, which seemed to be more "effective" in talking to the atheists at the Reason Rally?<br />Does it really matter whether a pastor/evangelist prefers one apologetic method over another?"<br /><br />With all due respect, I tend to think these concerns are slightly misguided. I respond to similar concerns in a post of mine here:<br /><br />http://www.choosinghats.com/2012/03/the-substance-of-success-in-apologetics/<br /><br />In case you're interested. Hope you're edified!<br /><br />Regards,<br />McFormtistMatthiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04649482807995627662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50617661750884668652012-03-28T18:10:06.379-04:002012-03-28T18:10:06.379-04:00Dusman,
Thanks for the reply. Very interesting me...Dusman,<br /><br />Thanks for the reply. Very interesting method of approaching the subject - I'll have to consider that.<br /><br />Sorry to hear about the footage being lost. Sounds like it would have been a sight to behold.<br /><br />Tom Gilson over at Thinking Christian said he saw someone who interacted with Myers, and he was polite at that particular point. I've often heard Myers is far more polite in person than online, and I've never been very impressed by that claim.<br /><br />Do any of the people you worked with have sites or articles or blog entries discussing what their experiences were at this place?Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-24532732617736820782012-03-28T17:24:56.298-04:002012-03-28T17:24:56.298-04:00Mathetes,
"But the other thing worth conside...Mathetes,<br /><br /><i>"But the other thing worth considering is how many atheists don't do what they could morally. Sure, some of them are well-mannered, but how many of them prefer to behave like PZ Meyers or Christopher Hitchens?"</i><br /><br />Its interesting that you mention PZ Myers, for Sye TenBruggencate personally took PZ Myers to task at the Reason Rally and Myers simply cursed at him and walked away. Sye then interacted with Dan Barker and Barker did so badly that his hands were literally shaking. They got the whole thing on videotape, but the footage became corrupted. Had they been able to recover the footage, the video of Sye refuting Barker would have gone absolutely viral. However, in the Lord's providence, it seems they won't be able to recover it.Dusmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18050174688923887698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-65289342504531806742012-03-28T17:19:44.291-04:002012-03-28T17:19:44.291-04:00Crude asked,
"Did you cite any evidence in t...Crude asked,<br /><br /><i>"Did you cite any evidence in the created order? Or did you maintain that it was self-evident to someone not in the grip of whatever atheists tend to be?"</i><br /><br />I maintained that it was self-evident because Romans 1 and Psalm 19 teach as much. I argued that the God-given faculties used to intuit God had been damaged by sin. Also, as a strategic move, I normally don't discuss evidence with hardened unbelievers because they can't account for the preconditions of evidence to begin with. Before we can talk about the facts, we've got to talk about their philosophy of facts first.<br /><br /><i>"From your vantage point, which seemed to be more "effective" in talking to the atheists at the Reason Rally?"</i><br /><br />It depends upon the conversation and who you're talking to. A few atheists were open to discussing hard evidence after I showed that in terms of their own worldview, they can't make sense out of the concept of evidence in the first place without assuming things about reality that couldn't exist unless God exists. We discussed things like the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, the evidence for the resurrection, and the textual reliability of the Bible.<br /><br /><i>"Does it really matter whether a pastor/evangelist prefers one apologetic method over another?"</i><br /><br />I think so. I believe that arguing in an autonomous fashion is sinful (i.e., purposefully and strategically avoiding discussing the Bible and your Christian convictions to defend Christian truth - like Kokul and Klusendorf do in their "Making Abortion Unthinkable"). However, there's nothing wrong in an of itself in using evidences or philosophical arguments for God. I use them all the time to prove the unbeliever wrong when they misquote facts and figures. When they take me to task on it, I pull out the facts to shut their mouths. The problem is when you purposefully give up your worldview and attempt to reason with unbelievers on supposed philosophically neutral ground. There is no neutral ground, for the unbeliever is poaching on the King's land and saying "there is no King, I am the King!"Dusmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18050174688923887698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86914153180786167102012-03-28T16:26:47.336-04:002012-03-28T16:26:47.336-04:00It's interesting to see new atheists claim tha...It's interesting to see new atheists claim that there's nothing morally that a Christian can do that an atheist can't. As mentioned, one could argue from objective morality to question why atheists <b>should</b> behave in a certain way. But the other thing worth considering is how many atheists <i>don't</i> do what they could morally. Sure, some of them are well-mannered, but how many of them prefer to behave like PZ Meyers or Christopher Hitchens?Matheteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13527032591499860552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8611498090676785862012-03-28T15:28:07.599-04:002012-03-28T15:28:07.599-04:00"Some of the preachers holding signs were dec...<i>"Some of the preachers holding signs were decent apologists whereas others were unprepared to interact intelligently with the unbelievers surrounding them."</i><br /><br />Recently, there's been a lot of blogosphere discussion about classical, evidential apologetics versus presuppositional apologetics.<br /><br />From your vantage point, which seemed to be more "effective" in talking to the atheists at the Reason Rally?<br /><br />Does it really matter whether a pastor/evangelist prefers one apologetic method over another?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69993398252265957682012-03-28T15:05:31.317-04:002012-03-28T15:05:31.317-04:00Did you cite any evidence in the created order? Or...Did you cite any evidence in the created order? Or did you maintain that it was self-evident to someone not in the grip of whatever atheists tend to be?Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45654839155573582622012-03-28T14:58:38.458-04:002012-03-28T14:58:38.458-04:00Crude,
Thanks for your kind comments. You asked,
...Crude,<br /><br />Thanks for your kind comments. You asked,<br /><br /><i>""I'm curious how you responded to claims like "there's no evidence for God existing"? Or "evolution shows God didn't create man"? Or did these actually not come up in your conversations?"</i><br /><br />They did. I simply responded, "Before we can talk about evidence, you have to explain how you can have evidence if you can't account for truth, logic, and the moral obligation to be rational." I then proceeded to argue mostly in a transcendental fashion by using the evolutionary argument against naturalism and the other types of arguments in the papers linked in the report. I then said something like this, "Look, there's plenty of evidence that God exists in the created order and in your own person (cf. Rom. 1:19-21), but you've suppressed that natural knowledge of God to such an extent that the mental faculties that should intuit God don't function properly anymore because they've been broken by your continued truth suppression and now God is giving you over to your own concocted lie."Dusmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18050174688923887698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-42822683084944405602012-03-28T13:39:58.187-04:002012-03-28T13:39:58.187-04:00Pastor Dusman,
Awesome testimony. I hope that t...Pastor Dusman,<br /><br />Awesome testimony. I hope that the young man at the end of your post does come to the Lord. <br /><br /><i>"<b>As expected</b>, the atheists we interacted with were a philosophical and theological mess."</i><br /><br />What's funny, is that I can imagine an atheist saying exactly the same thing, but with one substitute:<br /><br />"As expected, the <i>Christians</i> we interacted with were a philosophical and theological mess."<br /><br />Hard to make headway when both sides are making the same claim about each other.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36101998819668843772012-03-28T13:37:06.433-04:002012-03-28T13:37:06.433-04:00These posts are pretty much my favorite part of th...These posts are pretty much my favorite part of this blog, Dusman. I don't see them often enough.<br /><br />I'm curious how you responded to claims like "there's no evidence for God existing"? Or "evolution shows God didn't create man"? Or did these actually not come up in your conversations?Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44937272278436857932012-03-28T13:27:08.296-04:002012-03-28T13:27:08.296-04:00Excellent post. This post should be used as a pri...Excellent post. This post should be used as a primer for people before they go out witnessing. I find the problem of morality to be extremely effective as it affects three key areas: Logic, Emotion and the Conscience.Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163980705530776895noreply@blogger.com