tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6194857304539759387..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Hiding behind a girlRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-60637061837154756272013-11-08T17:29:29.115-05:002013-11-08T17:29:29.115-05:00Supposing so. All the more reason to urge truth-in...<i>Supposing so. All the more reason to urge truth-in-advertising for continuationist/charismatic claims to contain nuance, qualification, and caveats.</i><br /><br />Agreed. I've always believed that. Not all continuationists make exaggerated or false claims of the supernatural.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90984665034219344832013-11-08T12:18:20.852-05:002013-11-08T12:18:20.852-05:00Me: "Hi Annoyed Pinoy, would you agree that ...<b>Me</b>: <i>"Hi Annoyed Pinoy, would you agree that alleged "divine healers" today don't heal every patient they lay hands on?"</i><br /><br /><b>Annoyed Pinoy</b>: <i>"Fully? No."</i><br /><br />Thank you. I believe that you and Fred Butler are in agreement on that score.<br /><br /><b>Annoyed Pinoy</b>: <i>"Oh, and it goes without saying that some sincere Christians may believe they have certain charismatic gifts which they may not actually have. Also, that there are self-conscious frauds and con men out there too."</i><br /><br />Thank you for saying so.<br /><br /><b>Annoyed Pinoy</b>: <i>"<b>But maybe</b> healing was begun or progressed further in an imperceptible (or perceptible) way similar to how the fig tree Jesus cursed either didn't show any immediate signs of death but eventually in the (next?) morning it had withered from the roots."</i><br /><br />Supposing so. All the more reason to urge truth-in-advertising for continuationist/charismatic claims to contain nuance, qualification, and caveats.<br /><br />"Fallible healing. With this spiritually gifted healer, you folks may or may not get healed. Further, <i><b>maybe healing was begun or progressed further in an imperceptible (or perceptible) way</b></i> similar to how the fig tree Jesus cursed either didn't show any immediate signs of death but eventually in the (next?) morning it had withered from the roots. We continuationists/charismatics want to set expectations accordingly. Thank you."<br /><br /><br /><br />Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26366811592688660812013-11-08T00:05:04.788-05:002013-11-08T00:05:04.788-05:00One of the demoniacs in the area of the Gerasenes ...One of the demoniacs in the area of the Gerasenes was healed progressively since it says in Mark 5 that the demons were pleading with Jesus not to torment them <b>AFTER</b> Jesus had begun to command the demons to come out. Apparently, Jesus didn't heal the man instantly (Mark 5:6-10). It took time to cast out the demons, even if only 5 minutes (which would be about the time it would take for the conversation recorded to have taken place). One blind man's healing was delayed because he had to wash off the mud Jesus placed on his eyes (made with Jesus' spittle) at the pool of Siloam (John 9). The blind man had to walk to the pool. On another occasion, two blind men were following and calling out to Him by repeatedly saying "Have mercy on us, son of David". It was only when Jesus reached the house that he was he willing to heal them. Apparently Jesus was testing their faith and persistence since He obviously heard the blind men but kept on walking away from them till He reached the house (Matt. 9:27-31). Same thing with the Syrophoenician woman whom Jesus initially declined and refused to heal her daughter. Namaan had to dip in the Jordan river 7 times (2 King 5). Regarding Zarephath's widow, Elijah had to stretch himself on the child three times before the child was resurrected (1 Kings 17). Regarding the Shunammite woman's son, Elisha walked in the house "to and fro" and then eventually went up and stretched himself on the child. The child didn't open his eyes until after he sneezed seven times (2 King 4). Walking to and fro suggests to me that Elisha was praying. Similar to how Elijah prayed:<br /><br /><i>And he said to her, "Give me your son." And he took him from her arms and carried him up into the upper chamber where he lodged, and laid him on his own bed. <b>And he cried to the LORD, "O LORD my God, have you brought calamity even upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by killing her son?</b></i><br /><br /><b>I cited all these passages to show that sometimes healings took time, or was delayed, or was progressive. Or that the answer was delayed, or that God or Christ tested people's patience and persistence.</b><br /><br />There's a sense in which you can say that God "healed" Abraham and Sarah from barrenness since Sarah was past the age of child bearing and Paul says Abraham's body "was as good as dead" (Rom. 4:19). Yet, Abraham's persistent faith in God's promises was rewarded. The delay of their "healing" and the fulfillment of God's promise of a child took around 25 years. :<br /><br />"In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations..........He did not weaken in faith <b>when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb</b>.20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised." Rom. 4:18-21ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-24476363944236320452013-11-07T20:58:15.010-05:002013-11-07T20:58:15.010-05:00Remember too that even Jesus had to pray for one b...Remember too that even Jesus had to pray for one blind man twice (Mark 8:22-26). That's a case of progressive healing. Also, the 10 lepers were healed "on their way" to the priests. That's another case of "delayed" healing. Depending on the translation, some passages in the Gospels seem to imply that some of the people Jesus healed weren't healed immediately because they "began to amend" or were healed "in the same hour" (e.g. Matt. 8:13; 9:22; John 4:52-53 ASV, NKJV, NET). James appeals to Elijah's prayer for rain as an example of fervent prayer in the context of prayer for healing. When we look at Elijah's prayer for rain, he repeatedly prayed and persisted in praying until there was evidence of an answer. Seven times Elijah tells one of his servants to go and check the sky to see if it looks like it's going to rain (1 Kings 18:42-44). Evidently, James is saying that sometimes praying for healing might require persistence. Jesus also taught persistence in prayer in many places (e.g. Matt. 7:7-8ff; Luke 11:5-10ff; 18:1-8).<br /><br />Oh, and it goes without saying that some sincere Christians may believe they have certain charismatic gifts which they may not actually have. Also, that there are self-conscious frauds and con men out there too.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22342801996004883322013-11-07T20:29:29.762-05:002013-11-07T20:29:29.762-05:00Fully? No. But maybe healing was begun or progress...Fully? No. But maybe healing was begun or progressed further in an imperceptible (or perceptible) way similar to how the fig tree Jesus cursed either didn't show any immediate signs of death but eventually in the (next?) morning it had withered from the roots. Or the tree immediately showed signs of withering, but it didn't wither fully from the roots till a new (next?) morning (compare Mark 11:12-25 & Matt. 21:18-22). <br /><br />I believe it's God's revealed will to always heal, even though it's not always God's intention and will of decree to heal. Therefore, there is a possible situation (i.e. one possible situational permutation) where God doesn't intend to heal a person of cancer (say a person named Homer). His neighbor Ned doesn't know God doesn't intend to heal Homer because it's God's hidden will of decree. Nevertheless, Ned who believes in divine healing, attempts to exercise his developing "grace of faith" (per George Mueller's distinctions) for Homer's healing. But Homer doesn't get better in any obvious or apparent way. In fact, he eventually dies of the cancer. In times past God granted Ned the "gift of faith" (in distinction from the use of the "grace of faith") to heal other people of cancer, but in this case Homer died. Does that mean that healing wasn't begun in Homer's body or spirit? Not necessarily. It may have begun imperceptibly because God is faithful to honor genuine faith, but in this instance God didn't intend for Homer to get well so God didn't grant Ned "the gift of faith" nor allow his exercise of the "grace of faith" to finish the job. Nor did God allow pastor Lovejoy to fully exercise the gifts of healing he has to get Homer well. Lovejoy's ministering added to and progressed the partial healing accomplished by Ned's prayers so that Homer lived long enough to "get his house in order" and to say goodbye to his family. If Ned and Lovejoy hadn't ministered in the way they did, Homer would have died earlier. But in God's sovereignty, He orchestrated the means of Ned's and Lovejoy's faith and ministering to bring about Homer's death at the right time. <br /><br />BTW: George Mueller would not have said that one could use the "grace of faith" for healing with strong confidence or expectation for healing since he believed there was no promise of guaranteed healing (i.e. he didn't believe that God's revealed will is always to heal on the condition of faith). So, I used Mueller's distinction of the "grace of faith" in the case of Ned differently than Mueller would have himself. Mueller would say that ONLY if one had the "gift of faith" (which comes upon a person on and off as God grants) could one rightly expect guaranteed healing. Something which he sometimes (but not always) received from God for people's healing.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-72979705945050214472013-11-07T18:56:10.661-05:002013-11-07T18:56:10.661-05:00Annoyed Pinoy: "That's also why they cou...<b>Annoyed Pinoy</b>: <i>"That's also why they could be abused (e.g. the gift of tongues in Corinth) and<b> why they could be regulated (in a sense) by the possessor of the gift</b> (e.g. 1 Cor. 14:32)."</i><br /><br />Your bold-face italicized part may be what Fred Butler is addressing in the latter-half of his comment:<br /><br />"I have seen spiritual gifts happening in the Church and on the mission field as well, but I have yet to see gifted messengers who have the ability to turn on and turn off spiritual power and use it as God has anointed them to use it."<br /><br /><b>Annoyed Pinoy</b>: <i>"Yet at the same time, their proper and full use was ultimately dependent on the Sovereign God who gave the ability"</i><br /><br />And this statement may be what Fred Butler is addressing in the first-half of his comment:<br /><br /><b>"I have seen spiritual gifts happening in the Church and on the mission field as well</b>, but I have yet to see gifted messengers who have the ability to turn on and turn off spiritual power and use it as God has anointed them to use it."Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-91047073796976360612013-11-07T18:42:34.599-05:002013-11-07T18:42:34.599-05:00With regards to the comment directly above, I re-r...With regards to the comment directly above, I re-read the thread, and saw that you wrote this:<br /><br />"Fred,<br /><br />i) What makes you think continuationism has a single narrative on this issue? What makes you think continuationism is that monolithic?"<br /><br />So you're saying that since continuationism is non-monolithic, there's no single narrative. But whatever continuationist narrative that Fred is addressing, he's got it wrong. Is that your argument? Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-35581165251109789062013-11-07T18:35:20.375-05:002013-11-07T18:35:20.375-05:00What is the official or formal continuationist nar...What is the official or formal continuationist narrative that all or nearly all continuationists/charismatics stipulate to?<br /><br />Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86695425066237772552013-11-07T18:29:37.599-05:002013-11-07T18:29:37.599-05:00Hi Annoyed Pinoy, would you agree that alleged &qu...Hi Annoyed Pinoy, would you agree that alleged "divine healers" today don't heal every patient they lay hands on?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39108811344638161282013-11-07T18:23:52.583-05:002013-11-07T18:23:52.583-05:00So yes, they could heal anyone at will, and did so...<i>So yes, they could heal anyone at will, and did so on a number of occasions in Acts.</i><br /><br />What about Matt. 17:19-20 or Mark 9:17-18? The apostles were unable to cast out a demon "at will" for lack of faith. The more consistent instances of healing in Acts may have been due to a combination of 1. the development of their faith beyond what they had for the deaf-mute demoniac; 2. the faith of the prayees (e.g. Acts 14:9); 3. God's sovereign intention to heal on those occasions.<br />ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86727448038232011672013-11-07T17:58:13.238-05:002013-11-07T17:58:13.238-05:00You keep changing the subject. Why is that? The qu...You keep changing the subject. Why is that? The question at issue is whether Fred accurately depicted "the continuationist narrative." The question at issue is whether Fred is foisting his own interpretation of the "gifts" onto continuationism, then alleging that "the continuationist narrative" is contradicted by the facts. Is Fred surreptitiously judging continuationism on his own terms even though he claims to be judging continuationism on its own terms? That's the issue.<br /><br />You need to acquire the critical detachment to accurately represent a position you disagree with. You also need to acquire the mental discipline to focus on the actual argument, as stated, rather than recasting the issue according to your own agenda. <br /><br />I'm not going to spend all day correcting you. Before you can evaluate a position, you must understand it. <br /><br />This isn't a question of whether continuationism is true or false. We haven't gotten to that stage of the argument. Not in this post.<br /><br />Rather, we're at the preliminary stage of identifying what the position actually amounts to. Focus on one thing at a time. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-65965397114783141682013-11-07T17:35:41.770-05:002013-11-07T17:35:41.770-05:00Someone gifts you a car. Sometimes it works, somet...<i> Someone gifts you a car. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. That's the continuationist narrative?</i><br /><br />A father giving his son a car (which the son cannot afford) doesn't necessitate that the son has money to purchase the gas. A father giving his 13 year old son a rifle doesn't necessitate that the father gives the son all the ammo he may ever want to use for his own childish purposes. The father will give the son the necessary ammo at the right time for the right purposes. For example, when they go out hunting or when the family is under attack, or for target practice etc.<br /><br />Without question there "was" (or "is", given continuationism) a human element in the operation of the charismatic gifts since they were to be used in proportion to faith and experience/skill (Rom. 12:6b, 3; 1 Pet. 4:11b; Matt. 17:19-20). That's also why they could be abused (e.g. the gift of tongues in Corinth) and why they could be regulated (in a sense) by the possessor of the gift (e.g. 1 Cor. 14:32). Sometimes it might have been the case that the degree of manifestation of some of the gifts occasionally depended on the faith of the recipient or prayee not just the pray-er. Since even though there were times when Jesus healed people irrespective of the presence or degree of faith of the recipient, at other times Jesus said, "according to your faith be it unto you" and "if you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes" (i.e. the faith of the recipient was a factor in the degree of manifestation). There are other similar statements of Christ in the Gospels. In one instance Paul healed someone on the basis of the faith of lame person rather than his own faith (Acts 14:8-9; cf. Luke 8:46). Gal. 3:5 might refer to the faith of both pray-er and/or prayee.<br /><br />Yet at the same time, their proper and full use was ultimately dependent on the Sovereign God who gave the ability (Rom. 12:6a; Luke 5:17<b>d</b>; 9:54-56; Acts 4:29-30; 14:3d; Heb. 2:4; 1 Cor. 12:11b,6b). Did no one in Timothy's congregation have the gift of faith by which to heal him? Would God allow the "sons of Thunder" to rain down fire on a city at THEIR will? Even in Jesus ministry there were times when God the Father was especially willing and the Holy Spirit especially present to heal the sick (Luke 5:17).ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-83543941160277091032013-11-07T17:35:13.372-05:002013-11-07T17:35:13.372-05:00Steve: "Is the continuationist claim at odds...<b>Steve</b>: <i>"Is the continuationist claim at odds with the empirical outcome? Does it predict for a different result?"</i><br /><br />Hence the suggestion to qualify and nuance continuationist claims so as to set expectations accordingly.<br /><br />"Fallible healing. With this spiritually gifted healer, you folks may or may not get healed."<br /><br />Then there's no prediction of a miraculous healing, there shouldn't be an undue expectation of a miraculous healing, and there's no binding claim that there will be a miraculous healing by the allegedly gifted healer.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47976184830924875342013-11-07T17:21:58.617-05:002013-11-07T17:21:58.617-05:00Okay. I'll rephrase. Substitute "uninte...Okay. I'll rephrase. Substitute "unintelligible speech" for "yammering gibberish."Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5866738515947374542013-11-07T17:19:36.885-05:002013-11-07T17:19:36.885-05:00Calling it "yammering gibberish" is burn...Calling it "yammering gibberish" is burning bridges, not building bridges. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-48885076837817461762013-11-07T17:06:30.031-05:002013-11-07T17:06:30.031-05:00Wouldn't both of you agree that alleged "...<i>Wouldn't both of you agree that alleged "divine healers" <b>today</b> don't heal every patient they lay hands on?"</i>Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-84113955942969342312013-11-07T17:00:48.861-05:002013-11-07T17:00:48.861-05:00Sorry that you see it as an accusation. I'm m...Sorry that you see it as an accusation. I'm merely hoping to bridge the distance between cessationists and continuationists/charismatics.<br /><br />I simply think it would be helpful if all or nearly all continuationist/charismatics offered carefully nuanced statements like:<br /><br />o Fallible healing. With this spiritually gifted healer, you folks may or may not get healed.<br /><br />o Fallible tongues. With this spiritually gifted tongue-speaker, the tongues you hear may be an authentic language, it may be private prayer language, or it might be yammering gibberish.<br /><br />o Fallible prophecy. With this spiritually gifted prophet, the foretelling prophecy that's uttered may or may not come true.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32313274520751936402013-11-07T16:56:11.074-05:002013-11-07T16:56:11.074-05:00So you accuse charismatics of not offering nuanced...So you accuse charismatics of not offering nuanced statements, yet you've read virtually none of their best scholars. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74695525831871029822013-11-07T16:50:56.467-05:002013-11-07T16:50:56.467-05:00This is Fred's position:
"Peter and Pau...This is Fred's position: <br /><br />"Peter and Paul healed people because Jesus delegated to His apostles such abilities. See again Matthew 10. So yes, they could heal anyone at will, and did so on a number of occasions in Acts."<br /><br />http://hipandthigh.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/why-wont-faith-healers-heal-amputees/stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6112697828071162812013-11-07T16:48:11.250-05:002013-11-07T16:48:11.250-05:00Jack Deere.Jack Deere.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-80966122047477833872013-11-07T16:47:16.103-05:002013-11-07T16:47:16.103-05:00(Me) "With Steve's stipulation above and...(Me) "With Steve's stipulation above and Fred's observations about "spiritually gifted" messengers, there looks to be broad agreement here."<br /><br />(Steve) "What in the world are you talking about?"<br /><br />Wouldn't both of you agree that alleged "divine healers" don't heal every patient they lay hands on?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-21912282942451289512013-11-07T16:44:38.278-05:002013-11-07T16:44:38.278-05:00Well, TUAD, what charismatics have you studied? Go...Well, TUAD, what charismatics have you studied? Gordon Fee? Craig Keener? Max Turner? Don Codling? Graham Twelftree? stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-84814720683225402292013-11-07T16:31:03.363-05:002013-11-07T16:31:03.363-05:00I did not understand Fred to be saying what you sa...I did not understand Fred to be saying what you say he's saying. Of course, he may very well be. And I'll let him affirm or disaffirm your characterization of his argument.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-91020420172940568522013-11-07T16:17:50.523-05:002013-11-07T16:17:50.523-05:00What in the world are you talking about? Fred'...What in the world are you talking about? Fred's position is the polar opposite. According to Fred, the gift of healing means God delegated to the healer the autonomous power to heal at will. If they don't heal someone, that's because they didn't try, not because they tried and failed. <br /><br />For Fred, if someone claims to be a healer, but fails to heal each and everyone he lays hands on, then he doesn't have the gift of healing. He's not a genuine healer. He could have a 99% success rate, but a single failure is sufficient to invalidate his claims. <br /><br />Fred takes that position because it's a short-cut argument for cessationism. It shifts the burden of proof. Fred can summarily discount every successful healing, since, for him, the only evidence that counts is the ability to heal everyone, not the ability to heal anyone, or some rather than others. It's a way of rendering cessationism unfalsifiable by definition. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-84708144973372435082013-11-07T16:07:01.179-05:002013-11-07T16:07:01.179-05:00Are you deliberating changing the subject to diver...Are you deliberating changing the subject to divert attention away from Fred's actual argument? When Fred says "continuationists conveniently ignore Justin Peters and Joni Erickson [because] they dont fit the narrative," his accusation implies that he's judging continuationism on its own grounds. That the experience of Peters and Joni Eareckson Tada is inconsistent with the continuationist narrative. That would be an internal critique. Is the continuationist claim at odds with the empirical outcome? Does it predict for a different result? <br /><br />In reality, he seems to be judging continuationism by his own standards. How *he* defines the "gift of healing." It's a fundamental distinction. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.com