tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post5722529064882339798..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Is the lottery sincere?Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15990105810972687122017-01-31T12:38:38.540-05:002017-01-31T12:38:38.540-05:00What about this...the lottery determines that EVER...What about this...the lottery determines that EVERY ticket holder will win, but some ticket holders can't see the value of the ticket, or don't believe that every one is a winner, and so they throw theirs away.<br /><br />Others, however, are shown both the value of the tickets, and how they are all guaranteed to win, by the creator of the lottery himself, and so they keep theirs.<br /><br />Like all analogies, it's gonna fail at some points, but that matches both my experience and what I see in the bible.<br />Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06230576503431727315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-41806309409943231832017-01-30T12:28:47.784-05:002017-01-30T12:28:47.784-05:00Once more, according to a lottery, only one ticket...Once more, according to a lottery, only one ticket-holder can win. That's predetermined before the tickets are drawn. <br /><br />"To my understanding, in Calvinism the winning numbers have been drawn before the tickets are offered."<br /><br />Unconditional election is not equivalent to the Gospel offer. Moreover, as I already said, I wasn't using the lottery example as a direct illustration of the Gospel offer, but to probe the principle of what it means for something to be a true promise or bona fide offer. That can be complicated. Therefore, you've now redirected the analogy to illustrate something I explicitly said was not the intended analogy. <br /><br />"If the State secretly drew the winning numbers and then, after the fact, only offered you a losing ticket, I think you would call the lottery a scam."<br /><br />That's because you've modified the analogy. You can't legitimately impute the implications of your different analogy to my original analogy. <br /><br />"I don’t think you would say the State made you a sincere offer of you winning the lottery when the outcome of your losing was already predetermined."<br /><br />That's because you just did a bait-n-switch, where you swapped out my analogy, swapped in a different analogy, then act as though they're equivalent. Nice sleight-of-hand, but irrelevant. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74429063938588117762017-01-30T12:13:14.281-05:002017-01-30T12:13:14.281-05:00In the lottery, every ticket has a probability (re...In the lottery, every ticket has a probability (regardless of how small) of winning before the winning numbers are drawn. The drawing determines winners and losers. To my understanding, in Calvinism the winning numbers have been drawn before the tickets are offered. If the State secretly drew the winning numbers and then, after the fact, only offered you a losing ticket, I think you would call the lottery a scam. I don’t think you would say the State made you a sincere offer of you winning the lottery when the outcome of your losing was already predetermined. Thanks for your time. Appreciate your blog.Distant Cousinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14063164182381354778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-59318374541046677772017-01-28T22:39:53.314-05:002017-01-28T22:39:53.314-05:00Yes, I actually prefer to take positions for which...Yes, I actually prefer to take positions for which we have evidence, rather than taking positions for the evidence is nonexistent. Sure, Jesus did things we don't know about. That's the point. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64893342149342719882017-01-28T22:34:56.038-05:002017-01-28T22:34:56.038-05:00I notice that you conveniently blew past by counte...I notice that you conveniently blew past by counterevidence. <br /><br />And are you saying that Jesus personally appears to every human being? stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71246646356066900642017-01-28T21:14:28.979-05:002017-01-28T21:14:28.979-05:00Is that your attempt at being disparaging because ...Is that your attempt at being disparaging because you neglected to consider this?<br /><br />Look Steve, it is written with a literary prefix and suffix to help communicate the astonishment of your claim in light of the earthly and quite personal ministry of Christ.<br /><br />This distinction you are making is not only theologically dubious but assumes further, exhaustive knowledge of all Christ did and said when we know John said that Jesus did many other things and the whole world would not have room for books were they written about them.<br />Alex A. Guggenheimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04534710796711749227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1803374290085647052017-01-28T15:04:34.760-05:002017-01-28T15:04:34.760-05:00Is that your attempt to be cute? To begin with, Je...Is that your attempt to be cute? To begin with, Jesus generally preaches to large crowds, so it's not individualized. And while Jesus sometimes deals with individuals, that often in situations that have nothing to do with the Gospel offer, per se. It may be performing a miracle or exorcism. Or responding to a question. Of course, Jesus would be in position to know who will respond and who won't. So that's hardly analogous to mass evangelism.<br /><br />Which brings us to the larger point that in 2000 years of church history, God doesn't directly evangelize people. Rather, it's preachers and missionaries who do that. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-25587073234270137292017-01-28T13:57:35.383-05:002017-01-28T13:57:35.383-05:00Hmm..."God doesn't directly and individua...Hmm..."God doesn't directly and individually address the gospel to anyone"...so, that thing God did in Jesus who came, personally, and dealt with individuals with the gospel, that wasn't God?Alex A. Guggenheimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04534710796711749227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-35313641320483078342017-01-28T13:53:13.454-05:002017-01-28T13:53:13.454-05:00let it belet it beAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04820518001784832978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64482995005087293632017-01-28T13:17:47.406-05:002017-01-28T13:17:47.406-05:00Distant Cousin
"If the lottery first determi...Distant Cousin<br /><br />"If the lottery first determines that you will never win (0%) and then offers you a ticket, I think you would call it a scam."<br /><br />That's simplistic. The lottery determines that only one ticket-holder will win. Maybe you're the lucky ticket-holder. But by the same token, the lottery determines that every other ticket-holder will lose. <br /><br />I'm just stating the obvious. Do you deny that that's how lotteries work? stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-38654914081555946862017-01-28T10:49:33.156-05:002017-01-28T10:49:33.156-05:00Distant Cousin,
It would be a scam if you were n...Distant Cousin, <br /><br />It would be a scam if you were not allowed to pick your number according to your own volition. Or if the ticket numbers were randomly generated, it would be a scam if the system used different algorithms to generate your ticket than it did winning tickets. At the very least, you could even offer to buy at a premium any other potential winning ticket from winners prior to the drawing. In a word, it would only be a scam if you were <b>*prevented*</b> from doing what you wanted and the system behaved mathematically differently toward you. Those sorts of things would make it a rigged game. <br /><br />At any rate, you don't seem interested in putting forth serious objections. You just seem to enjoy making what you think to be clever remarks. At any rate, you still have this with which to contend. <br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2017/01/chopped-liver.html?showComment=1485549643594&m=1#c8969247397811794717Reformed Apologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17398596496540697639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36883249739906599252017-01-28T10:40:58.359-05:002017-01-28T10:40:58.359-05:00Doesn't this ignore Steve's first point: &...Doesn't this ignore Steve's first point: "it's not as though God is personally encouraging the reprobate to take him up on the offer." And he stipulates in the analogy that the machine giving out lotto tickets does not represent God handing out offers.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05690738239872948496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15748410543300109202017-01-28T09:11:14.172-05:002017-01-28T09:11:14.172-05:00If the lottery first determines that you will neve...If the lottery first determines that you will never win (0%) and then offers you a ticket, I think you would call it a scam.<br />Distant Cousinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05765621905219905064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-43532057395035682902017-01-27T23:18:03.849-05:002017-01-27T23:18:03.849-05:00Even if God did address everyone, that wouldn'...Even if God did address everyone, that wouldn't imply he's encouraging anyone. The offer is a statement of fact. It doesn't imply desire. <br /><br />I'm not an expert lottery tickets but I'm not sure even randomly generated tickets can't be duplicated by other randomly generated tickets. Maybe not though, but if that weren't the case, then the tickets wouldn't be strictly random. And I'm pretty sure people can choose their lucky numbers. I don't think the system is designed for only one winner. Theoretically, the more winners the more players, therefore, the more revenue. The house gets its fixed split and the winners split the rest is what I thought. <br />Reformed Apologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17398596496540697639noreply@blogger.com