tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post5225396341530902947..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Emperor Worship and Roman Supremacy: The Roman MindsetRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73096108694833730852011-06-05T16:27:12.401-04:002011-06-05T16:27:12.401-04:00Dudley Davis has asked me to post this comment:
*...Dudley Davis has asked me to post this comment:<br /><br />****<br /><br /><br />The Pope is Antichrist<br /><br />John you hit the nail on the head …when you said : “Living in the most important city of the empire, it was easy for the Roman Christians to exchange the principles at working the kingdom of God for the principles at work in the kingdom of the Romans”.<br /><br />As a Presbyterian I do see the papacy as an antichrist institution. I renounce the papacy as well as the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholicism because as you say in your blog: “they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,” (Romans 1:23).<br /><br />As an ex Roman Catholic who is now a Presbyterian and a Reformed Protestant I renounce the pope and his church as did Calvin and Knox and Zwingli and Luther and all the Protestant reformers who were at one time like me Roman catholic. Too many cradle Protestants sadly fail to see this.<br /><br />John Calvin said : “I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist--I deny him to be the successor of Peter..I deny him to be the head of the church”. “Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt”; I shall briefly show that (Pauls words in 2 Thessalonians 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy” John Calvin, Tracts, Vol. 1, pp. 219,220. John Calvin, Institutes.<br /><br />John Knox: Knox wrote to abolish “that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church” and that the pope should be recognized as “the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” Taken from The Zurich Letters, pg. 199 by John Knox. He preached that Romish traditions and ceremonies should be abolished along with “œthat tyranny which the Pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church” and that he should be acknowledged as “the son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” In a public challenge he declared: “As for your Roman Church, as it is now corrupted”¦ I no more doubt but that it is the synagogue of Satan, and the head therof, called the Pope, to be the man of sin of whom the apostle speaketh.” Knox, The Zurich Letters, p.199.<br /><br />Ulrich Zwingli: “I know that in it works the might and power of the Devil, that is, of the Antichrist”¦ the Papacy has to be abolished”¦ But by no other means can it be more thoroughly routed than by the word of God (2 Thessalonians 2), because as soon as the world receives this in the right way, it will turn away from the Pope without compulsion.” Principle Works of Zwingli, Vol. 7, p. 135.<br /><br />Martin Luther: “We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist.” (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): “I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself.” --D’Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9. See also On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36278544609316329952011-06-03T01:55:38.212-04:002011-06-03T01:55:38.212-04:00Recents posts in St. Vincent Lerins and St. Optatu...<i>Recents posts in St. Vincent Lerins and St. Optatus are pretty damning to your contentions here</i><br /><br />By the time these individuals were writing, the horses were already out of the barn, the damage having been done.<br /><br />They had codified their rules around an already-broken system.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-4059523049085817372011-06-02T17:32:33.458-04:002011-06-02T17:32:33.458-04:00So, initally Urbani there is a lot of posturing an...So, initally Urbani there is a lot of posturing and I hope some substance to be seen. Will keep reading.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36766431124399814682011-06-02T17:31:39.170-04:002011-06-02T17:31:39.170-04:00So Urbani, by departing am I either a separated br...So Urbani, by departing am I either a separated brethren -- to be sought and welcomed under Vatican II or a schismatic and possibly then accursed according to Trent.<br /><br />The use of I John 2:19 clearly says those who go out are anti-christs, so I guess all Protestants are accursed then according to Trent and not subject to any sort of ecumenical seeking.<br /><br />Seems the Road to Rome is still barred unless we the Protestants understand what anti-christs we are.<br /><br />Does not do much for dialogue.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69878847270974398312011-06-02T17:22:49.698-04:002011-06-02T17:22:49.698-04:00Urbani -- I have begun to read their articles and ...Urbani -- I have begun to read their articles and will judge for myself their substance.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-70610849935751599512011-06-02T17:04:19.172-04:002011-06-02T17:04:19.172-04:00Hence, no engagement from our interlocutors at &qu...<i>Hence, no engagement from our interlocutors at "Called to Communion."</i><br /><br />Actually, i might guess that they are busy going about creating articles that have the real substance.<br /><br />Recents posts in St. Vincent Lerins and St. Optatus are pretty damning to your contentions here and I don't see you 'engaging' them.Urbanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15652548544425619205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62438544761297776172011-06-02T16:12:16.465-04:002011-06-02T16:12:16.465-04:00Philosopher Thomas Hobbes already famously called ...Philosopher Thomas Hobbes already famously called the papacy as "the ghost of the Roman Empire":<br /><br /><a href="http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/hobbes/leviathan-k.html#CHAPTERXLVI" rel="nofollow">http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/hobbes/leviathan-k.html#CHAPTERXLVI</a><br /><br />"For, from the time that the Bishop of Rome had gotten to be acknowledged for bishop universal, by pretence of succession to St. Peter, their whole hierarchy, or kingdom of darkness, may be compared not unfitly to the kingdom of fairies; that is, to the old wives' fables in England concerning ghosts and spirits, and the feats they play in the night. And if a man consider the original of this great ecclesiastical dominion, he will easily perceive that the papacy is no other than the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof: for so did the papacy start up on a sudden out of the ruins of that heathen power."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28681012678058226772011-06-02T13:29:54.001-04:002011-06-02T13:29:54.001-04:00They have a "Do Not Read" list?They have a "Do Not Read" list?John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69857343346707796812011-06-02T13:23:06.354-04:002011-06-02T13:23:06.354-04:00"I do wonder if the Catholic defenders of the...<i>"I do wonder if the Catholic defenders of the papacy will want to engage on this."<br /><br />History is not their friend, but it will be interesting to watch if they try.</i><br /><br />Triablogue is on their "Do Not Read" list.<br /><br />Hence, no engagement from our interlocutors at "Called to Communion."Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-34820504423340302762011-06-02T09:01:48.180-04:002011-06-02T09:01:48.180-04:00Hi GREV, I'm sure a lot of folks here either h...Hi GREV, I'm sure a lot of folks here either have Roman Catholic roots or Roman Catholic relatives. I was just talking with my sister, who now is a member of a Baptist church, and even though she's not a person who has tried to think these things through, she admitted to me that when she reads the Bible, she sees absolutely no connection with Roman Catholicism.<br /><br />And I'm convinced that it has everything to do with the Roman culture. <br /><br />Ratzinger made a big deal in Called to Communion about Rome being some sort of divinely-appointed trajectory in Acts, but in history, here, we see the real connection.<br /><br />My hope is to talk about Ratzinger's comments in a future post, Lord willing.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47603745512162447072011-06-02T08:55:57.723-04:002011-06-02T08:55:57.723-04:00John:
"What, in this case, do they think is ...John:<br /><br />"What, in this case, do they think is the more plausible explanation for the rise of the Roman bishop? Some undetectable yet "implicit" meaning that they think they have found in Matt 16? Or the Roman culture, in which they "lived and moved and had their being"?"<br /><br />A very fair summary though it will npt be viewed as such I am sure. Having a late Catholic grandfather and Catholic relatives these posts are very informative and I find them useful.<br /><br />I guess I am with others who don't deny that God has His people in the Catholic Faith, but that this faith maintains positions I can never agree with.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-29724325004952753772011-06-02T08:42:44.666-04:002011-06-02T08:42:44.666-04:00Roman Catholicism rests a whole lot on the notion ...Roman Catholicism rests a whole lot on the notion that it has "through further reflection" determined things that are "implicit" in Scripture.<br /><br />But in this case, what they are forced to say is "implicit" in Scripture is very evidently "explicit" in the Roman culture. <br /><br />What, in this case, do they think is the more plausible explanation for the rise of the Roman bishop? Some undetectable yet "implicit" meaning that they think they have found in Matt 16? Or the Roman culture, in which they "lived and moved and had their being"?John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15907760560474075472011-06-02T08:31:38.536-04:002011-06-02T08:31:38.536-04:00"I do wonder if the Catholic defenders of the..."I do wonder if the Catholic defenders of the papacy will want to engage on this."<br /><br />History is not their friend, but it will be interesting to watch if they try.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44832921169607920632011-06-02T07:31:49.631-04:002011-06-02T07:31:49.631-04:00The following from the post fits so well with a hi...The following from the post fits so well with a history on the decline of the Roman Empire that I read the other year regarding the development of the Church of Rome's bureaucracy:<br /><br />"1 Clement goes further in inculcating similar obedience to church authorities. Christianity would succeed because its communities were well structured and because its institutions effectively held on to converts. It would shape an organization as tight as (or tighter than) that of the empire and would offer better motivation for adherence. Thus 1 Clement is offering a formula not only for surviving persecution but also for overcoming the persecutor."<br /><br />I get it that a good Catholic must defend the Papacy. Most whom I meet have accepted the line that the formula pronounced by the church at their infant baptism has guaranteed their salvation, and which is repeated during the funeral mass.<br /><br />SO; why question?GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36818449876523090062011-06-02T06:04:28.425-04:002011-06-02T06:04:28.425-04:00By the way, I'd like to ask any of our Newman ...By the way, I'd like to ask any of our Newman fans out there ("Development of doctrine") if this historical association fits within Newman's paradigm that "no doctrine is articulated until it is opposed"?John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-72486090049903006002011-06-02T05:56:42.932-04:002011-06-02T05:56:42.932-04:00Hi GREV, I can't imagine they will find this t...Hi GREV, I can't imagine they will find this to be a comforting thought.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14106974471286394082011-06-02T05:52:34.603-04:002011-06-02T05:52:34.603-04:00Excellent! I do wonder if the Catholic defenders ...Excellent! I do wonder if the Catholic defenders of the papacy will want to engage on this.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.com