tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post4756482732975979309..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: ApokatastasisRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8166984504322714332007-08-07T13:24:00.000-04:002007-08-07T13:24:00.000-04:00It is worth noting that the concept of 'restoratio...It is worth noting that the concept of 'restoration of all things' itself isn't specifically Christian, nor that it is restricted to theologian's debates. Indeed, it forms that basis of a spiritual movement that appeared in France in the mid 1700s under the influence of Martines de Pasqually and Louis-Claude de Saint Martin. There are other famous proponents of the finality of Hell, such as Pico della Mirandola who asked, in substance, if a sin is finite in time, shouldn't the retribution be finite too? <BR/>But there are many inherent problems to be ironed out if one considers eternity of Hell and the perspective of a Judgement Day, just to pick two...<BR/><BR/>I discuss these branches of 'apokatastasis' as well as neoplatonist ones on my blog (at http://www.apokatastasis.org/).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73705827654581876952007-08-05T07:42:00.000-04:002007-08-05T07:42:00.000-04:00Apparently an ArchBishop thought as much back in E...Apparently an ArchBishop thought as much back in Edwards time:<BR/><BR/>2. The doctrine of those who teach that it is not certain that God will fulfill those absolute threatenings, is blasphemous another way, and that is, as God, according to their supposition, was obliged to make use of a fallacy to govern the world. They own that it is needful that men should apprehend themselves liable to an eternal punishment, that they might thereby be restrained from sin, and that God has threatened such a punishment, for the very end that they might believe themselves exposed to it. But what an unworthy opinion does this convey of God and his government, of his infinite majesty, and wisdom, and all-sufficiency! — Beside, they suppose that though God has made use of such a fallacy, yet it is not such an one but that they have detected him in it. Though God intended men should believe it to be certain that sinners are liable to an eternal punishment, yet they suppose that they have been so cunning as to find out that it is not certain. And so that God had not laid his design so deep, but that such cunning men as they can discern the cheat and defeat the design, because they have found out that there is no necessary connection between the threatening of eternal punishment, and the execution of that threatening.<BR/><BR/>Considering these things, is it not greatly to be wondered at, that Archbishop Tillotson, who has made so great a figure among the new-fashioned divines, should advance such an opinion as this?<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>The Eternity of Hell’s Torments.<BR/>A Sermon Preached in April, 1739 <BR/>By Jonathan Edwards, A.M.<BR/>Pastor of the Church of Christ in Northampton.Ron Van Brenkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15623171051016737306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36622285650312247582007-08-04T23:36:00.000-04:002007-08-04T23:36:00.000-04:00Scripture is quite clear that not all men will be ...Scripture is quite clear that not all men will be saved, so to hope for such is both foolish (insofar as it is a hope without foundation) and opposing the will of God.<BR/><BR/>And, of course, God does not "lose" if some go to hell. This was an idea my neo-neo-Orthodox professor in college constantly put forward. But, in fact, He wins victory over the rebels and justly punishes them.Kyjohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02576699017770933239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-25724414749511276472007-08-04T16:18:00.000-04:002007-08-04T16:18:00.000-04:00Steve--I finally have a reply up to your last resp...Steve--<BR/><BR/>I finally have a reply up to your last response. Check my blog if you get a chance; but if you simply don't want to continue the conversation that's fine too.MGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11961603927935499412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-59560771522225755192007-08-04T02:06:00.000-04:002007-08-04T02:06:00.000-04:00Also, Chris Tilling, a British theology student in...Also, Chris Tilling, a British theology student in Germany who runs a popular blog, caled, "Chrisendom," has a number of recent posts on the question of "universalism." Worth checking out. (Along with his series on "inerrancy")<BR/><BR/>http://www.christilling.de/blog/ctblog.htmlEdwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15525808088142206232007-08-04T02:03:00.000-04:002007-08-04T02:03:00.000-04:00Funny coincidence, I ran into a Presbyterian minis...Funny coincidence, I ran into a Presbyterian minister's blog very soon after googling Apokalypto or whatever it is. And the Rev. wrote a review of "Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved?" by Hans Urs Von Balthasar:<BR/><BR/>Balthasar was one of the major Catholic theologians of the 20th century. He wrote dozens of books. In this book he surveys New Testament passages used by those on both sides of this issue. Then he looks at various theological writers of the church, beginning with the Church Father, Origen. Origen played with the idea of ‘apokatastasis’ – the notion that God will eventually restore all beings to heaven. In other words, everyone will be saved in the end (even the Devil). Others asserted this idea: Clement of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, Didymus the Blind, and Jerome. He then looks at Augustine and Aquinas, as well as others. A key statement is quoted that comes from a German catechism published in 1985. It says, “Neither Holy Scripture nor the Church’s Tradition of faith asserts with certainty of any man that he is actually in hell.” Balthasar’s thesis is that threats of hell are found in Scripture, but a threat or possibility is not the same as an actual sentence of condemnation. So, we cannot say with certainty that anyone will end up in hell. But we have the right to hope that no one will be in hell. <BR/><BR/>Of course God gives us the freedom to reject him. And if anyone ends up in hell, it is not because God desires it; it is because a human decides against God. But here is another key sentence: <BR/><BR/>“Human freedom can be neither broken nor neutralized by divine freedom, but it may well be, so to speak, outwitted.” <BR/><BR/>In other words, God will find a way to convince even the hardest sinner to change his/her mind and accept God’s grace. In the end, God will win out. No one will be in hell. <BR/><BR/>BLOG SOURCE: Interim Report <BR/>A Presbyterian pontificates, but not infallibly.<BR/>http://interimreport.blogspot.com/2007/01/apokatastasis.htmlEdwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19634338097171032002007-08-03T23:09:00.000-04:002007-08-03T23:09:00.000-04:00As to your post...Yet another reason not to enslav...As to your post...<BR/><BR/>Yet another reason not to enslave one's exegesis of Scripture to the church fathers. Good post.Saint and Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14166699860672840738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-35674530952671079262007-08-03T23:06:00.000-04:002007-08-03T23:06:00.000-04:00Off topic and I know you've probably covered this ...Off topic and I know you've probably covered this before, but...<BR/><BR/>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/02/a-primer-on-the-problem-of-evil/#comment-9830Saint and Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14166699860672840738noreply@blogger.com