tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post425705618951061804..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Church unityRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-46511825990380338762009-05-26T17:35:33.940-04:002009-05-26T17:35:33.940-04:00However, Jesus doesn't say the world will know we ...However, Jesus doesn't say the world will know we are one because we belong to one Church.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23925175347545870632009-05-26T14:25:17.614-04:002009-05-26T14:25:17.614-04:00Two points, which doesn't quite undermine your ori...Two points, which doesn't quite undermine your original intent, Steve:<br /><br />1. John 17 does specify that the unity of the church will be something that will cause the world to know something. This is prima facie reason to think that the unity describe must be in some sense visible publicly.<br /><br />"20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, *so that the world may believe that you have sent me*. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, *so that the world may know* that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. "<br /><br />2. On the other hand, given the rest of the OT, this does not preclude there being visible disunity with some who *claim* to be Christian and have some kind of visible similarity to the true church.<br /><br />The RCs are ultimately begging the question by tying visible unity to unity with the pope.Andrew Fulfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03868073417200837332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6701887167475804962009-05-24T18:50:08.455-04:002009-05-24T18:50:08.455-04:00TRUTH UNITES... AND DIVIDES SAID:
"#1. The RCC ma...TRUTH UNITES... AND DIVIDES SAID:<br /><br />"#1. The RCC makes a big deal about the *visible* church as I'm sure you're more than well aware of. They don't seem to hold much stock in the ecclesiastical doctrine known as the 'invisible' church."<br /><br />My post was neutral on the visibility/invisibility of the church. I wasn't arguing for the invisibility of the church in this post, and the argument I posted isn't dependent on that ulterior assumption. True or false, it's not germane. <br /><br />Rather, I was commenting on Catholic prooftexts for the unity/unicity of the church, and in that connection I'd point out that their own prooftexts don't make visibility a condition of ecclesiastical unity or unicity. For that they would have to find a different set of prooftexts.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-70527341310477686672009-05-24T15:56:20.100-04:002009-05-24T15:56:20.100-04:00People who belong to the same local assembly can f...People who belong to the same local assembly can fail to have unity by apostolic standards (1 Corinthians 1:10-11, 11:18, Philippians 4:2-3). People who don't belong to one organizational structure, such as a denomination, can have unity anyway (Luke 9:49-50).<br /><br />"For even as the Lord who dwells in us is one and the same, He everywhere joins and couples His own people in the bond of unity, whence their sound has gone out into the whole earth, who are sent by the Lord swiftly running in the spirit of unity; as, on the other hand, it is of no advantage that some are very near and joined together bodily, if in spirit and mind they differ, since souls cannot at all be united which divide themselves from God's unity." (Firmilian, Cyprian's Letter 74:3)<br /><br />In the second century, Celsus brought charges of disunity against Christianity similar to the charges Roman Catholics bring against Evangelicals. Origen responded by acknowledging that there was much disunity, in addition to the unity that existed, and he traced the disunity back to the time of the apostles (Against Celsus, 3:10-13).Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58790220508006070922009-05-24T15:49:16.393-04:002009-05-24T15:49:16.393-04:00Steve Hays: "Church unity is defined by union wit...<B>Steve Hays</B>: "Church unity is defined by union with Christ. <br /><br />And who is in union with Christ? Christian believers. Those who exercise saving faith in Christ."<br /><br />Don't disagreement here. Just a couple of observations.<br /><br />#1. The RCC makes a big deal about the *visible* church as I'm sure you're more than well aware of. They don't seem to hold much stock in the ecclesiastical doctrine known as the "invisible" church.<br /><br />#2. With respect to <I>extra ecclesiam nulla salus</I> it seems to me that the RCC has backed away from the logical consequence of this doctrine through very confusing qualifications.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.com