tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post3572355943952103654..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Blue lagoonRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-49044838193790806362016-12-21T12:37:36.747-05:002016-12-21T12:37:36.747-05:00i) There's a distinction between church attend...i) There's a distinction between church attendance and church membership. If they wish to be members, they can be required to marry.<br /><br />ii) The line between fornication and a licit marital relationship depends on intent as well as making good on intent. Acting consistent with intent. Discharging their duties as husband and wife. <br /><br />As a mental state, intent can't be directly discerned by outsiders. Moreover, the sincerity or insincerity of intent can't be known in advance, since only the future will reveal that. People can intend something, but lose their resolve 5 years down the road. <br /><br />In general, we can only judge people by their behavior. By external actions, since we don't know the future or their private intentions. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-70729498522327037042016-12-21T11:24:20.599-05:002016-12-21T11:24:20.599-05:00"Given the opportunity, why would the couple ..."Given the opportunity, why would the couple in your hypothetical resist formalizing their domestic arrangement?"<br /><br />Suppose they say they’re not interested in formalizing their relationship. They consider themselves committed to one another, they don’t think any sort of formalizing is necessary to be married, and they just want to be left alone and their privacy respected. Where is the line between fornication and a licit marriage relationship? Should they be allowed to fellowship or, perhaps, be subject to some sort of church discipline, whatever that might look like. unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12790117113759350324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-88397164224316439482016-12-20T20:57:25.665-05:002016-12-20T20:57:25.665-05:00This is one of those borderline cases. On the one ...This is one of those borderline cases. On the one hand, Scripture condemns fornication. On the other hand, a marriage ceremony doesn't seem to be absolutely essential to constitute marriage. In principle, a common law marriage can, I think, be a bona fide marriage. <br /><br />However, exceptions aren't necessarily good policy. Since marriage is social institution, there's value in having a public ceremony. Making this a community event. And that avoids the appearance of fornication. Given the opportunity, why would the couple in your hypothetical resist formalizing their domestic arrangement? Even if, for whatever reason, they didn't get married before they began attending that church, if the pastor offers to marry them, I don't see what good reason they'd have to refuse the invitation.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7248799738475345502016-12-20T19:34:14.881-05:002016-12-20T19:34:14.881-05:00Suppose, hypothetically, that a couple comes into ...Suppose, hypothetically, that a couple comes into church and it is known that they were never formally married. They have lived together for a few years, have children together, and appear, for all practical purposes, to be committed to each other. Is this a licit relationship? Should a church pressure them to be formally married?readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04808569985959792771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74746359958255378342016-12-19T14:32:19.992-05:002016-12-19T14:32:19.992-05:00good pointgood pointBretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15914126628566132517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-25515161820457353202016-12-19T13:30:36.015-05:002016-12-19T13:30:36.015-05:00Some straight men do resort to sodomy when no wome...Some straight men do resort to sodomy when no women are available. Prison is a textbook case. <br /><br />My hypothetical scenario wasn't addressing the morality of what should happen in that situation, but probing the question of whether a homosexual male would consider heterosexual activity to be a viable fallback option if it was a choice between abstinence and heterosexual sex. <br /><br />There are, though, some asymmetries. Although a homosexual might feel heterosexual sex is second-best, yet from a physiological standpoint, homosexual sex is second-best. Our bodies are designed for heterosexual sex, not homosexual sex. So at a physical level, that ought to be more satisfying.<br /><br />In addition, although a homosexual male would initially view a relationship with a woman as second best, I was exploring the question of whether, were he forced into that situation, he might find a relationship with a woman to be more emotionally satisfying that he anticipated. Until then, he never put it to the test. But under the circumstances, he might find that women have a lot more to offer than he imagined. For instance, a female friend of Leonard Bernstein once said he needed men sexually and women emotionally. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10124647707919726672016-12-19T11:44:06.152-05:002016-12-19T11:44:06.152-05:00Playing the devil's advocate here a bit, does ...Playing the devil's advocate here a bit, does this work in reverse also? If I understand you rightly, the sexual drive would be stronger than sexual preference. So if two men were stranded, one homosexual and one straight, does that mean that the sex drive will overcome the straight man's preference for women?Bretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15914126628566132517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23697146903129641662016-12-19T11:42:38.293-05:002016-12-19T11:42:38.293-05:00It has less to do with a verbal agreement than uph...It has less to do with a verbal agreement than upholding the duties of husband and wife, including lifelong fidelity. Not what they say but what they do. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-41487710983753228222016-12-19T09:01:02.968-05:002016-12-19T09:01:02.968-05:00I'm asking whether, in your current view, you ...I'm asking whether, in your current view, you agree that if a normal heterosexual couple (Christian or non-Christian) verbally agree to be married that that is (or can be) a legitimate marriage in God's eyes.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45339647259669678662016-12-18T13:35:40.722-05:002016-12-18T13:35:40.722-05:00I share your intuition. I share your intuition. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-20245187714775387672016-12-18T12:11:24.316-05:002016-12-18T12:11:24.316-05:00There are also homosexual men who are homosexual o...There are also homosexual men who are homosexual out of desperation, not because that's their natural desire. Most men are emasculated, and absent a Christian upbringing, they'll find sex where they can. I remember a student I trained with in a Manhood Academy class expressing frustration over his progress at becoming socially competent. He said maybe he should go back to being gay instead of training to get into a relationship with a woman- he wanted to have sex with chicks, but he had resorted to having sex with men in the past, and was considering it as a viable alternative then.<br /><br />I think half if not the vast majority of homosexual men would totally bang a chick if stranded on a remote island with no chance of rescue.Prince Asbelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06084817183123423099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-53675325531113824092016-12-18T11:46:01.118-05:002016-12-18T11:46:01.118-05:00Your question is unclear. Are you asking when it&#...Your question is unclear. Are you asking when it's morally permissible for a stranded pair to have sexual relationship without a formal marriage? If there's no reasonable expectation of rescue, I think that's permissible. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1624329244206389502016-12-18T03:11:07.862-05:002016-12-18T03:11:07.862-05:00For example, this blogpost by Cheung:
http://www.v...For example, this blogpost by Cheung:<br /><a href="http://www.vincentcheung.com/2010/05/11/civil-marriage/" rel="nofollow">http://www.vincentcheung.com/2010/05/11/civil-marriage/</a><br />ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5443047789268524752016-12-18T03:07:15.198-05:002016-12-18T03:07:15.198-05:00If they wanted to get married in such a situation ...If they wanted to get married in such a situation and were willing to be married had someone been there to officiate, could their mutual agreement to being married be genuine in God's eyes? Of course this is different from most cases of cohabitation since they have opportunity to do so publicly and with witnesses but don't do so. I've read/heard both Vincent Cheung and Drake Shelton say a verbal agreement is all that's necessary. But I would expect that answer from such maverick and independent thinking theological commentators. What say you Steve?ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47007109673360395002016-12-17T12:21:14.489-05:002016-12-17T12:21:14.489-05:00Depends in part on what's available, and their...Depends in part on what's available, and their eligibility. In addition, some women have a missionary impulse. They will, say, marry an alcoholic in hopes of saving him from his addiction. That sort of thing.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39365595440275062592016-12-17T07:47:17.818-05:002016-12-17T07:47:17.818-05:00Your scenario is valid, but I'm unclear on how...Your scenario is valid, but I'm unclear on how it's useful in terms of a Christian approach.<br /><br />Some bisexual men might be willing to marry a woman, but how many women are going to be willing to marry a predominantly homosexual man?<br /><br />James Bradshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08994530282037853746noreply@blogger.com