tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post2689200573301855500..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Demonic deceptionRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26559673720975443882021-02-07T18:05:28.458-05:002021-02-07T18:05:28.458-05:00I think there's debate over whether Satan can ...I think there's debate over whether Satan can raise the dead (e.g. Rev 13:3, 14). But that depends how one interprets the passages. Hawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01142879704651632453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-41517513981546613002021-02-07T13:13:25.271-05:002021-02-07T13:13:25.271-05:00That is an odd scene to be sure. And the witch se...That is an odd scene to be sure. And the witch seemed startled by her own conjuring which adds another layer of perplexity.<br /><br />Equally perplexing to me is Baalam son of Beor. Every account treats him as a non-Israelite seer who has the power to bless and curse, and he's condemned elsewhere in Scripture, yet he appears to have communion with the true God of Israel.<br /><br />God's ways are not our ways.Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05994831207453460486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58783288775559986342021-02-07T12:35:04.613-05:002021-02-07T12:35:04.613-05:00Yes, of course, Jesus is the son of God. I was ske...Yes, of course, Jesus is the son of God. I was sketching out the Christian metaphysics but from a kind of "outsider perspective." Within the Christian worldview, why does Jesus rise all by himself while others need someone to raise them? Because, within the Christian metaphysical universe (which I believe to be the real universe), Jesus is the son of God.<br /><br />Now, going back to my original comment above, I have to admit: There is the witch of Endor. She seems to be able to call up the ghost of Samuel. He even grumbles about it. I don't know what to make of that. So that does seem to be an evil person commanding a spirit to appear. I guess God allows that. But she doesn't reunite Samuel with his body--i.e., raise the dead.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-11307167590740540892021-02-07T08:19:02.783-05:002021-02-07T08:19:02.783-05:00"Jesus of course is supposed to be God the So...<i>"Jesus of course is supposed to be God the Son, so he doesn't need anybody else to come along and perform the act of raising him."</i><br /><br />Is *supposed to be* or *is*? Maybe I'm just not tracking with your line of thought.Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05994831207453460486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45281997453927852912021-02-07T00:14:22.717-05:002021-02-07T00:14:22.717-05:00Oh yeah, true, I mention it in passing in #4.Oh yeah, true, I mention it in passing in #4.Hawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01142879704651632453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-43395742189867612242021-02-06T22:33:46.832-05:002021-02-06T22:33:46.832-05:00Wasn't Jesus accused of being in league with t...Wasn't Jesus accused of being in league with the devil and casting out demons by satan's power? meyuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01357165469112868757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18391700660666051922021-02-06T19:34:24.762-05:002021-02-06T19:34:24.762-05:00Great points, WD! An evil god equivalent to a good...Great points, WD! An evil god equivalent to a good God would be more like Manichaeism.Hawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01142879704651632453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-82280395810390769782021-02-06T19:22:23.777-05:002021-02-06T19:22:23.777-05:00Regarding point 14 I would also note that dependin...Regarding point 14 I would also note that depending on one's theory of evil an "evil god" may be nonsensical, at least if one means something like an "evil" ultimate being roughly equivalent to the good God of Christian theism. If one holds to something like the privation theory of evil, where evil is an absence or a twisting of the good, then such a being would not be possible. Personally, I think there are a number of philosophical problems with conceptualizing evil as a self-existent thing or that an "evil" ultimate being makes sense.<br /><br />As just one example, one immediately starts running into problems trying to define the attributes of a fundamentally and totally evil being. Is such a being "effective"? "Competent"? "Wise?" These are usually considered to be positive attributes. If not, is such a being supremely ineffective, incompetent, and foolish? Just trying to define such a being leads one into a tangle of contradictory nonsense. In essence it invites one to imagine a being that's really "good" at being "bad." One can attempt to get out of these problems by saying that these types of attributes should be considered value-neutral in some way and the only thing that must be supremely evil is the beings intent or moral actions, but this leads to even more problems. <br /><br />For one thing, this means that pretty much all attributes, many of which most people intuitively believe to be positive, would have to be considered fundamentally morally neutral. It is not in fact morally good to be wise. For another, what does it mean to be a morally "evil" god then? Are this god's moral attributes something we have a responsibility to emulate? If so, isn't this just a good god whose attributes we have mistaken? If not, where does our higher moral standard come from and why does it differ from the supreme being's? These are just some of the many problems with the idea, so I don't think an "evil god" is a live option.WittenbergsDoorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02946392627327916816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-43892268772281372722021-02-06T19:04:25.330-05:002021-02-06T19:04:25.330-05:00Maybe to come at this sideways, I think most Chris...Maybe to come at this sideways, I think most Christians agree demons can oppress as well as possess people. That seems clear enough in the Bible, though one could add other empirical evidences. (I'll leave aside the more debatable question about whether demons can possess <i>Christians</i> specifically. The most common argument I hear against possession of Christians is that an unclean or evil spirit can't indwell the same person at the same time as the Holy Spirit.) <br /><br />If demons can possess people, then they can possess their physical bodies at a minimum. However, can demons possess the person's mind or spirit too? It doesn't seem like demons can possess a person's mind or spirit because it seems like the person's mind or spirit is still present and "intact" if that's even the right way to put it. The person is still "there" albeit they might be submerged and traumatized. After all, I imagine it would be highly disconcerting, to say the least, for a person's spirit to have an evil spirit or mind indwelling right alongside them in their body.<br /><br />So just how much power does a demon have over a person's mind even if the demon is possessing a person? Obviously a demon can't obliterate a person's mind or spirit in the sense of causing it to cease to exist. Of course, God could, though the Bible tells us God won't, not even for the damned, for (frighteningly) they will exist eternally in hell. Anyway, a demon may have some power over a possessed person's body (e.g. making them flail when possessed, giving them preternatural abilities like physical strength to deal with several adult men trying to hold them down), but do they have any power over a possessed person's mind or spirit? If not, then it seems less likely they would have power over a person's mind or spirit sufficient enough to reconstitute the two into one if the two are torn asunder. <br /><br />Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about though. Just floating a thought or two.Hawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01142879704651632453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73766215232388203862021-02-06T18:33:56.673-05:002021-02-06T18:33:56.673-05:00Excellent point, Lydia! Excellent point, Lydia! Hawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01142879704651632453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5718042573756094462021-02-06T18:25:28.938-05:002021-02-06T18:25:28.938-05:00No problem, jay-dog! Please feel free to let us kn...No problem, jay-dog! Please feel free to let us know if you have any more questions.Hawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01142879704651632453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-43335085872332312152021-02-06T18:24:56.107-05:002021-02-06T18:24:56.107-05:00As always, thanks, Jason! I likewise second people...As always, thanks, Jason! I likewise second people reading Jason's previous comments in the original thread along with this comment.<br />Hawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01142879704651632453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-51234102877861837792021-02-06T18:23:23.566-05:002021-02-06T18:23:23.566-05:00Oh yeah, it sure would help us better answer the q...Oh yeah, it sure would help us better answer the question if the question was clearer. At least I wasn't entirely sure how best to unpack the question. For example, regarding the statement that Christian apologists say that miracles in other religions are just attempts by demons to deceive us:<br /><br />1. Miracles in other religions could be real or fake.<br />2. Some (not necessarily all) miracles in other religions could have a demonic source. But there could be other sources too.<br />3. Demons are deceptive. Satan is the father of lies.<br />4. Miracles (real or fake) can be used to mislead people.<br />5. I suppose one could discuss divine deception (e.g. 1 Kgs 22:19-23, 2 Thes 2:11).<br />6. If Christianity is true, then other religions are deceptive to various degrees, even without considering miracles.Hawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01142879704651632453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28505313419175110272021-02-06T15:17:34.820-05:002021-02-06T15:17:34.820-05:00I would also question whether sub-theistic entitie...I would also question whether sub-theistic entities, working against God (rather than by the power of God), have the power to raise the dead. Jesus implies that Satan can cause illness. So does the book of Job. Perhaps a demon could make a body appear to revive by possessing it--kind of a zombie scenario. But I don't think there is any evidence that literally causing the mind and body to come back together after they have been separated lies within the power of Satan and his demons. This seems to fit with the fact that when any human in Scripture raises the dead he has to be empowered by God. Jesus of course is supposed to be God the Son, so he doesn't need anybody else to come along and perform the act of raising him. None of the alleged examples of miracles performed by demons (e.g., Pharoah's magicians) involve raising the dead. <br /><br />I suspect that this is because in that case we are dealing with powers over minds/souls rather than just power over the physical universe.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62383824713003806092021-02-06T13:17:29.923-05:002021-02-06T13:17:29.923-05:00Thank you! Very helpful!Thank you! Very helpful!jay-doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00685764412375815346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19384895671124934592021-02-06T08:09:49.711-05:002021-02-06T08:09:49.711-05:00Concerning the posts jay-dog linked, I'll make...Concerning the posts jay-dog linked, I'll make some further comments on the argument from greater power addressed in the second post, since it's an argument I often use (e.g., Moses outperforming the magicians of Pharaoh, Christ outperforming Antichrist). Anybody who's interested can go back to the original thread, which Hawk linked above, to see what I said about the argument from greater power there. One of the problems with the critique of the argument from greater power in the second post jay-dog linked is that it responds to a highly undeveloped form of the argument. A Christian wouldn't just cite the greater status of one miracle over another or one system of miracles over another system. Rather, the appeal to that greater status would be accompanied by other arguments. For example:<br /><br />- How likely is it that God would be silent by not giving us a revelation or give us one with attestation inferior to the demonic revelation (i.e., Christianity in the scenario under consideration)?<br /><br />- How likely is it that God would be silent in a second context by not responding to such a significant demonic revelation that claims to represent God?<br /><br />- Every created being we know of is far more inferior to God than the hypothetical demon in question would be. How likely is it that there would be this one exception (one demon or one group of such beings)? Continuity is more likely than discontinuity.<br /><br />- Just as non-Christians often object that Christianity isn't what they'd expect of a Divine revelation (e.g., animal sacrifice, the slaughter of the Canaanites, the Christian concept of hell), what about the difficulties with viewing Christianity as a demonic revelation? If God is going to be silent and let this demon deceive so many people, wouldn't the demon be more likely to produce a revelation more accommodating to us and, therefore, more appealing? Just as Christians have to address objections to the nature of Divine revelation in their belief system, any proponent of a demonic hypothesis would have to address objections to the nature of demonic revelation in that proponent's belief system.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-42719149191867534122021-02-06T03:18:00.846-05:002021-02-06T03:18:00.846-05:00The argument put forward in those posts seems biza...The argument put forward in those posts seems bizarre to me. The author seems to accept at least some of what the Bible and the Judaeo-Christian tradition says about the devil. But why would he accept any of it? If it is the devil's intention to deceive and he also has enormous power then he would be able to use that power to prevent us from even knowing that he is a deceiver. The very fact that we know the devil is a deceiver shows that the devil's powers are limited. <br />David Madisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17669408537169304193noreply@blogger.com