tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post25969869109950449..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Sitting OrthoducksRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6652118695521955842018-08-14T00:34:52.043-04:002018-08-14T00:34:52.043-04:00But no one has to donate to CRI, just as no one ha...But no one has to donate to CRI, just as no one has to donate to Benny Hinn. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47216413135981468782018-08-14T00:16:43.451-04:002018-08-14T00:16:43.451-04:00Steve, I would say there are things that require m...Steve, I would say there are things that require more or less accountability and oversight than other things. I'm glad that our seminaries have a short leash. On the other hand, as a weekend-warrior blogger, my guess is that the pastor and elders of my church seldom read what I write, unless I specifically send a link to them. Nonetheless, I can be held to account for abusive behavior or heretical statements.<br /><br />Obviously, there is a lot of territory in between those two extremes.<br /><br />But I don't think it is a stretch to say that the CRI situation is beyond unacceptable. Hank can take the ship in any crazy direction he likes. Maybe next week he'll decide to ditch EO and go RC. No one is going to stop him. The most that churches can do is cut off financial support.David Gadboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375984671877016361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-80255048074096530392018-08-12T22:03:02.091-04:002018-08-12T22:03:02.091-04:00Speaking for myself, I don't view elders as th...Speaking for myself, I don't view elders as the official grownups, from whom laymen must have prior approval for what they do. I don't think there's a categorical distinction between elders and laymen. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71247182027051283682018-08-12T21:19:52.408-04:002018-08-12T21:19:52.408-04:00I said that many of the things a church does in ca...I said that many of the things a church does in carrying out its various functions, duties, and ministries operate by broader principles and wisdom rather than by positive, explicit dictate. Scripture dictates *what* the church should do in general, and sometimes but not always *how*, at least in many of the details.<br /><br />Now, regarding "para-church ministries", at what point does a local church ministry become a para-church ministry? If a local church is involved in X ministry, and decides to partner with another like-minded church to do evangelism, apologetics, charity, or missions, is it a para-church ministry then? What if another church is added, and another. Does it become a para-church organization after 5 or 6 churches are involved?<br /><br />That ministry is not separate from the churches, but neither is it equivalent to "a church". It is a specific/narrow ministerial work of multiple churches coordinating and laboring together. It is not a separate entity, theologically speaking. Pointing out that it is a separate legal entity is irrelevant to this fact, it is a category error.<br /><br />Am I really to believe that RC/EO seminaries and universities aren't separately incorporated from their founding churches? Perhaps you will reply that they (or some) are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the church. OK, so then is your objection to para-church ministries the fact that they aren't wholly-owned subsidiaries? That hardly sounds like a principled theological objection, as if they were divine deliverances.<br /><br />Also, since most educated people are aware of the scriptural warrant for at least some ministers to set aside to be engaged in missionary work, I didn't think I needed to provide an argument for this. Am I wrong? Or are you just wasting our time with frivolous demands to score points?David Gadboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375984671877016361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-66457030692332761402018-08-12T20:27:48.768-04:002018-08-12T20:27:48.768-04:00David, that seems like question begging. Legitimat...David, that seems like question begging. Legitimate on what basis again? Last time is was broader principles. I am still waiting for some kind of justification.<br /><br />Moving it to seminaries just moves the issue. It could be easily argued that seminaries, at least historically are just extensions of a given church. How they exist now may leave them open to the same criticism unless we have some biblical justification for that kind of existence.<br /><br />That they exist to achieve some goal relative to the church doesn't constitute a justification for their existence. Again, what would the justification for their existence be?<br /><br />I am sure you don't have a problem with some of your ministers doing such and so. How do we get from, you don't have a problem with X, to, X is therefore biblically justified?<br /><br />As far as the Orthodox goes, organizations like AFR and seminaries are legally and organizationally under the church. They aren't separate entities. <br /><br />So again, where is the biblical justification for a parachurch organization?Perry Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11253580908626798722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-88287153273478664792018-08-12T19:02:31.316-04:002018-08-12T19:02:31.316-04:00I haven't commented on who should apologize fo...I haven't commented on who should apologize for what. <br /><br />My point is that there are para-church organizations (if we even want to call them that) that are legitimate in the Protestant and Reformed views, and should be regarded as a different category from para-church organizations that are independent, unaccountable and usurp the church's authority and duties rather than facilitating the church's duties and functions.<br /><br />Well, a seminary is an "entity that is not a church", as is a denominational missions organization. As is potentially true of an apologetics ministry or charitable organization, and so forth. Sure, they have separate legal identities, but that isn't a theological distinction. They exist to facilitate the work of the church by connecting elders and laymen of multiple churches for coordinated work that is often impossible for any single local assembly.<br /><br />Also, we don't have a problem with some of our ministers being specially appointed to preach and teach a majority of the time outside of the local assembly. They are called missionaries. Also, we have many ordained ministers who spend the lion's share of their time teaching as seminary professors, and are seldom in the pulpit.<br /><br />Of course, none of this is exotic or unprecedented. Both the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox church have seminaries, universities, charitable organizations, missions organizations, and so forth, as separate legal organizations. Of course those kinds of churches can just say "we are the boss, we make the rules" to justify all of that. I get it. But let's not pretend that Protestants are doing anything inherently dastardly and innovative.David Gadboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375984671877016361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-46197680166851813462018-08-12T12:34:37.566-04:002018-08-12T12:34:37.566-04:00David,
That there are always problems says nothin...David,<br /><br />That there are always problems says nothing as to whether this is one or whether Hank, White, et al owe people a public apology.<br /><br />I never claimed either you or Steve needed Pierce's arguments (or lack thereof) to evaluate whether AOMIN or any other parachurch ministry's existence is justifiable. I evaluated AOMIN based on their own arguments. Either they need better arguments, dump SS or dissolve. So far, they haven't issued any kind of response that I know of. And as I said above, I doubt they will, because the calculus is about protecting revenue and the business and not telling the truth and doing what is biblical.<br /><br />That said, I haven't see much of a justification offered by others either.<br /><br />I am familiar with the Regulative Principle but pointing to "broader principles" doesn't really help nor do the examples you provide. Here is why.<br /><br />What principles are those exactly that ministerial activities performed by parachurch businesses fall under? I can't see any that do. They all seem to fall under the biblical parameters for ministry, by ministers.<br /><br />Second, if your pastor were teaching Sunday School classes for a profit across dozens of other parishes or even outside that context, then this is more comparable to parachurch ministry. The same goes for a podcast. Doing a podcast is one thing. Turning a profit from it as his main source of income apart from the giving of the church is quite another. And of course a podcast doesn't constitute a separate legal entity from the church per se. My beef is not with podcasts and such. More to the point, the example you give does not constitute creating an entity that is not a church, even on Reformation principles of what constitutes a true visible church. <br /><br /><br />What is a parachurch ministry? It is not a church by definition, elder accountable or not. So what is it?<br /><br /><br />And yes I am familiar with not all who hold to some version of Sola Scriptura hold to the Regulative Principle. I was Reformed at one time.Perry Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11253580908626798722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18405540157082741482018-08-11T22:34:38.735-04:002018-08-11T22:34:38.735-04:00There will always be problems in Christ's chur...There will always be problems in Christ's church, even if we carefully pattern ourselves after the NT church structurally. A church's elder board can always devolve into a good ol' boys club. We make safeguards against that, but the safeguards themselves are enforced by finite sinners. The safeguards are not infallible. That's just a reality until Christ's return. We deal with the hand we are given.<br /><br />Like Steve, I don't need Pierce's arguments to evaluate whether Aomin's existence is legitimate.<br /><br />The Reformed regulative principle of worship has historically referred to what we do in public worship as the local assembly. We need positive scriptural warrant for what we do in that sphere. But church ministry, more generally speaking, often operates according to broader scriptural principles and the dictates of wisdom. If our church holds Sunday school classes, or perhaps my pastor does a podcast with the pastor of our sister church, those doesn't need specific "divine authorization". Or if our denomination forms a missions board...and so on.<br /><br />And, needless to say, not all reformational Protestants who believe in sola scriptura hold to the Reformed RPW.<br /><br />The evangelly-fish para-church organizations like CRI are probably not defensible. The fact that Hank, the star of the whole show, can essentially change religions and yet everything just keeps on keepin' on, is proof positive that there isn't any real accountability and oversite.<br /><br /><br />A better model for ministries that require the contributions of multiple churches is probably something like the way Reformed seminaries operate. They are inter-denominational, yet are constrained by an eye-watering amount of oversite. And even this is not perfect, many seminaries should have been bulldozed decades ago.<br />David Gadboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375984671877016361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50974727060031978162018-08-11T21:06:07.661-04:002018-08-11T21:06:07.661-04:00David,
Even if we say that there is a substantial...David,<br /><br />Even if we say that there is a substantial organizational difference the problem remains.<br /><br />Rich Pierce representing AOMIN says that they require biblical support showing that parachurch ministries are divinely instituted. He agrees there isn't any. But his reasoning is that even though there isn't biblical support, they are licensed anyway because of a pragmatic need. <br /><br />Now, better structure of not, Pierce has a problem. <br /><br />1. Its a non sequitur.<br /><br />2. Either he is violating his own position a la Sola Scriptura or he needs to provide some scriptural basis.<br /><br /><br />I am just pointing this out on his own stated principles, not mine.<br /><br /><br />In sum though, better structured or not, White knew of the problems with CRI and positioned himself to profit from them. And that is just wrong.<br /><br /><br />For my part I think he has adopted the same strategy Hank and other parachurch businesses have, which is to just ignore critics unless you have to face them. Perhaps I am wrong, but I am not expecting White to respond and explain his public actions. <br /><br /><br />If I am right and he doesn't then it will show that the substantial organizational difference makes no difference here because there is no real accountability. Its just another good ole boy network. Perry Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11253580908626798722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86575234036006361562018-08-11T17:37:10.878-04:002018-08-11T17:37:10.878-04:00I didn't say "under some local pastor&quo...I didn't say "under some local pastor". A true visible church. With elders and church discipline. If I recall, Hank was going to Calvary Chapels, which have a "Moses Model" pastor/CEO, no membership (last I checked, anyway), and certainly no church discipline.<br /><br />CRI and Crusade are/were very broad evangelly-fish organizations. There was no oversite and accountability with any church. They could do whatever they wanted.<br /><br />What makes a one-man show like Aomin substantively different from the ministry of White's church? Probably it has its own LLC and coffers, but that's about it. The only substantive difference is that it has broader reach than the local community.<br /><br />I don't view apologetics as detached from an elder's duties to preach and teach the Word, engage in evangelism and missions work. And of course sometimes we partner with other like-minded churches (locally or more broadly) to do these things. So this does not require its own separate, distinct warrant.David Gadboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375984671877016361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68335783537410072622018-08-11T17:13:02.887-04:002018-08-11T17:13:02.887-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.David Gadboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375984671877016361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32413191159667786412018-08-11T13:38:48.699-04:002018-08-11T13:38:48.699-04:00David, that assumes that CRI leadership wasn't...David, that assumes that CRI leadership wasn't under some local pastor. They were. Second, as far as AOMIN's own expressed views, they require a basis for parachurch organizations being divinely instituted and they admit it isn't. So either they need to provide that scriptural justification, deny SS or dissolve. How would being run by an elder justify its existence scripturally exactly?Perry Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11253580908626798722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-60237270932427570542018-08-10T20:44:22.338-04:002018-08-10T20:44:22.338-04:00Anyway, my point is that to be fair to AOMin and s...Anyway, my point is that to be fair to AOMin and similar organizations, they should not be lumped together with CRI or Crusade.David Gadboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375984671877016361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-61534952232517753432018-08-10T20:39:28.542-04:002018-08-10T20:39:28.542-04:00Oh yes. They made the mistake of stocking Berkhof&...Oh yes. They made the mistake of stocking Berkhof's Systematic Theology in the library of the 1999 Ocean City, NJ summer project house. The rest is history.David Gadboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375984671877016361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68757282213148068712018-08-10T20:14:30.243-04:002018-08-10T20:14:30.243-04:00Uh-oh. Now your shady past is coming to light. Cam...Uh-oh. Now your shady past is coming to light. Campus Crusade! I shudder to think what other skeletons you have locked in that closet! stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-59634037364774358412018-08-10T18:29:11.593-04:002018-08-10T18:29:11.593-04:00As a former Campus Crusader in my college days, I ...As a former Campus Crusader in my college days, I take a fairly dim view of para-church ministries. But I don't classify elder-run apologetics ministries to be para-church ministries in the meaningful sense of the word. If it is run by or under the oversite of elders and the local church, I don't see a problem with it.David Gadboishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375984671877016361noreply@blogger.com