tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post1826332580171837819..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: The virgin birth prophecyRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-30408631449039317452015-06-07T17:41:10.239-04:002015-06-07T17:41:10.239-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-56830317726714551852015-06-07T17:40:34.468-04:002015-06-07T17:40:34.468-04:00It seems like the phrase "husband of my youth...It seems like the phrase "husband of my youth" seems to accord more with a marriage than an engagement period, the extract makes it clear that in other places where the phrase is used, it is in reference to a husband and wife so why would it be different here? especially when the word "ba'al is used undisputedly throughout the whole old testament to refer to husband, the combination of those two factors: the word " ba'al" being used and a statement more consistent with marriage than an engagement period tips the scales for me. The phrase just far more naturally accords with a marriage than an engagement.<br /><br /> As for your other options they seem a little ad hoc, most marriages in that time would have been arranged, seems the whole "knowing each other as friends" is more of a western style anachronism, most brides in those days would probably not have had a prior relationship with the man who they were marrying, couples would then grow into love during the marriage. Of course it is possible that some couples night have had that relationship with each other but in that culture is it that likely?<br /><br />Finally even though I see your concern for apologetics, I'm simply using this verse as a response to skeptics who like to claim that betulah is a specific word for virgin Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-48513276593871070882015-06-07T15:05:32.467-04:002015-06-07T15:05:32.467-04:00It seems to me that "husband of her youth&quo...It seems to me that "husband of her youth" could refer to how they were betrothed for a long period of time. Or even prior to betrothal, their marriage may have been arranged by their parents in their extreme youth. And having grown up together as friends she always enjoyed his company and always considered him her "husband" (so to speak) knowing with "certainty" they would eventually end up together in marriage. With her submitting to his decisions (on childish topics) even back then as her "ba'al." <br /><br />Or the phrase may be proleptic. Meaning, had they married and lived happily ever after he would have truly been the husband of her youth. But since his death, that made the phrase and the thought of growing old together even more bittersweet. So, there's a sense of irony in there too.<br /><br />Even if the article from thinktank correctly interpreted the meaning of Joel 1:8, it's <b>not clearly</b> the correct meaning; and therefore (IMHO) has little apologetical force. It won't make skeptics or Jewish anti-missionaries reconsider their position. Especially since scholars would seem to agree that even if both words (bethulah and almah) may refer to both virgin and non-virgin females, the word bethulah is still the likely word to use if one wanted to more clearly imply virginity. So, even if Joel 1:8 actually is an exception to the general use of bethulah, appealing to it too strongly may seem to non-Christians as "another example of desperate Christian fundamentalists grasping at straws."ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-43070872373579563882015-06-07T15:02:38.316-04:002015-06-07T15:02:38.316-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-49085121592435101552015-06-07T12:49:56.569-04:002015-06-07T12:49:56.569-04:00This is from the article on Isaiah 7:14 from think...This is from the article on Isaiah 7:14 from thinktank, seems pretty convincing to me<br /><br />Joel 1:8 seems to be an exception to the absolute virginity of the bethulah. This verse refers to the desolation of Israel. “Lament like a virgin [bethulah] girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.” Some view this verse in the context of the betrothal period as in the case of Mary and Joseph before they were legally married (Matt 1:18–19). They hold that the woman was called a bethulah because she had not yet had sexual relations, and her “husband” (bridegroom) died before the marriage had actually been consummated. However, the problem with interpreting this Hebrew word in Joel 1:8 as a betrothed but unmarried virgin is that the expression “husband of her youth” is an expression of longevity. It is parallel to the phrase “wife of thy youth” in Proverbs 5:18 and Isaiah 54:6 which can be translated, “a wife you have had since your youth.” The Septuagint reflects the idea of actual marriage rather than just betrothal by translating bethulah in Joel 1:8 as numphe ("bride, married woman") instead of parthenos ("virgin"). Furthermore the use of ba'al in the passage seems to require that an actual marriage rather than a mere betrothal had taken place. In Deuteronomy 22:23 the husband of a betrothed woman is called an ish (cf. Judg 19:27), but the husband of the married woman in that same passage is called a ba'al (verse 22).. The word ba'al is never used in the Old Testament of the betrothed state. It always refers to a married man when describing the relationship between a man and a woman [Genesis 20:3; Exodus 21:3, 22; Deuteronomy 24:1–4; 2 Samuel 11:26; Esther 1:20; Proverbs 12:4; 31:11, 23, 28 ; Hosea 2:18.]." [Niessen, "The virginity of the Almah in Isaiah 7.14", BibSacAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68505256778412657962015-06-07T12:47:56.874-04:002015-06-07T12:47:56.874-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64621896824054613062015-06-06T18:03:44.072-04:002015-06-06T18:03:44.072-04:00I'd been planning on writing on this topic for...I'd been planning on writing on this topic for a long while, and so Steve's blog was good reason for me to just post something. Here's a link to what I've written so far. <a href="http://bibledifficultiesanswered.blogspot.com/2015/06/isa-714-matt-123-and-virgin-birth.html" rel="nofollow">http://bibledifficultiesanswered.blogspot.com/2015/06/isa-714-matt-123-and-virgin-birth.html</a>ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-34896685728510954652015-06-06T18:00:12.264-04:002015-06-06T18:00:12.264-04:00Lament like a virgin wearing sackcloth for the bri...Lament like a virgin wearing sackcloth for the bridegroom of her youth. - Joel 1:8<br /><br />I'm not sure that works. As John Gill states, "either as one that had been betrothed to a young man, but not married, he dying after the espousals, and before marriage; which must be greatly distressing to one that passionately loved him; and therefore, instead of her nuptial robes, prepared to meet him and be married in, girds herself with sackcloth..." <br /><br />In other words, bethulah in Joel 1:8 might still refer to a virgin who mourns because her betrothed husband dies before they could actually have the marriage ceremony and later consummate the marriage. A betrothal period can last months or even years, so such a situation is not impossible.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-20928861849500620672015-06-06T14:58:46.458-04:002015-06-06T14:58:46.458-04:00Bethulah isn't a more "specific word for ...Bethulah isn't a more "specific word for virginity" it's used in Joel 1:8 to denote a married woman. Gordon Wenham believes that betulah means " a young woman of marriageable age"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com