tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post1825576937684553298..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Blanket forgivenessRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-60006856004641778682015-07-01T15:00:51.394-04:002015-07-01T15:00:51.394-04:00I've repeatedly detailed my position.I've repeatedly detailed my position.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1439078433122661202015-07-01T13:57:04.824-04:002015-07-01T13:57:04.824-04:00CR- Thanks for that information! I'll be sure ...CR- Thanks for that information! I'll be sure to keep researching the topic. I appreciate the exchange from all of you here!Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1403466067214920272015-07-01T13:53:03.965-04:002015-07-01T13:53:03.965-04:00Steve, I'm very sorry to have bothered you wit...Steve, I'm very sorry to have bothered you with my request to define your position. My bad, obviously.Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39990164687491163662015-06-30T18:42:15.770-04:002015-06-30T18:42:15.770-04:00Interesting thread. Most Reformed Biblical counse...Interesting thread. Most Reformed Biblical counseling - that I'm aware of at least - unpacks a conditional forgiveness model, because it's demonstrably the most exegetically sound position.<br /><br />On the other hand a lot of the Puritan divines - many of whom I deeply respect - generally take a more unconditional approach to forgiveness, majoring on loving one's enemies and counting free (unconditional) forgiveness as the fruit of charity born of grace.<br /><br />In both cases forgiveness is a choice, but in no case have I seen an exegetically sound case for a divine command to forgive unconditionally as a rule of Christian piety and practice.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03231394164372721485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-63160675556511848622015-06-30T11:44:01.807-04:002015-06-30T11:44:01.807-04:00Deb, you're wasting my time. I give detailed e...Deb, you're wasting my time. I give detailed explanations of my position, and you feign bafflement. You act as if you're doing us a favor by gracing us with your presence. You make constant demands on our time. <br /><br />I've already said more than I need to. I don't owe you anything. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14844399158960604092015-06-30T11:20:31.817-04:002015-06-30T11:20:31.817-04:00Hi Deb W.,
Sorry, I admit I haven't followed ...Hi Deb W.,<br /><br />Sorry, I admit I haven't followed this most recent conversation in its entirety so maybe I'm already saying stuff that's been covered. But as far as conditional forgiveness is concerned, I'd think one important criterion for conditional forgiveness is the person is penitent.<br /><br />Say John intentionally steals something from Jane. Say Jane knows it was John who did it. But say John refuses to admit it. How can Jane forgive John if John is impenitent? That's just a simple example of course. Not sure if there's something more you're looking for? Again, sorry if this has already been discussed, and maybe I should read through this entire thread before weighing in. rockingwithhawkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10550503108269371174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-49143913880821454652015-06-30T09:56:36.994-04:002015-06-30T09:56:36.994-04:00It's impossible to compare two concepts withou...It's impossible to compare two concepts without a definition of our terms. That is why I simply have asked what conditional forgiveness actually is/does/looks like. How in the world do you expect ME to provide you with a comparison of the two concepts, when the only thing I know so far about conditional forgiveness is what is not? <br />It is a fools errand. You know as well as I do that the definition of terms is foundational. <br /><br />Honestly, I'm open to the idea that I may not be right, but not if I don't even know what it is you are asking me to embrace. Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14768360369058199402015-06-29T22:22:34.898-04:002015-06-29T22:22:34.898-04:00Deb W: "No, really."
Yes, really. Do y...Deb W: "No, really."<br /><br />Yes, really. Do you think the difference between conditional/unconditional forgiveness is a difference in kind or a difference in scope? Is unconditional forgiveness the same kind of forgiveness extended to penitent and impenitent offenders while conditional forgiveness is the same kind of forgiveness, but restricted to penitent offenders? Or we do think we're dealing with two different kinds (i.e. concepts) of forgiveness? Is the difference qualitative or quantitative?<br /><br />It's a substantive question. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19036843877464106512015-06-29T16:33:26.877-04:002015-06-29T16:33:26.877-04:00What?? I have described my view multiple times. In...What?? I have described my view multiple times. In this thread, just see "Deb W .6/28/2015 4:51 PM" just as one example.<br /><br />Neither you nor anyone else (with exception of Chris Brauns, with whom you disagree) has offered an actual statement of what "Conditional Forgiveness" actually does and looks like. It's the only question I've asked... Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19140133052922255502015-06-29T15:45:25.348-04:002015-06-29T15:45:25.348-04:00I notice you duck the question of what your own po...I notice you duck the question of what your own position amounts do. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67123322830346166682015-06-29T15:22:35.458-04:002015-06-29T15:22:35.458-04:00"Seems to me that your question is not about ..."Seems to me that your question is not about the nature of the adjective (conditional, unconditional), but the nature of the noun (forgiveness). "<br /><br />No, really. I'm just trying to understand exactly what "Conditional Forgiveness" does and what it looks like.<br /><br /><br />[You know, other than just being gracious (but withholding forgiveness) on the one hand and being reconciled on the other hand.] Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47660392293179880792015-06-29T13:51:38.859-04:002015-06-29T13:51:38.859-04:00Seems to me that your question is not about the na...Seems to me that your question is not about the nature of the adjective (conditional, unconditional), but the nature of the noun (forgiveness). What do you think unconditional forgiveness does/looks like in contrast to conditional forgiveness? With respect to the noun, the definition will be parallel in both cases, unlike you think the very nature of forgiveness is different in some respect. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26713744256733744352015-06-29T13:07:22.405-04:002015-06-29T13:07:22.405-04:00Finally, you seem to be hung up on the word "...Finally, you seem to be hung up on the word "condition." When you hear that word, it has synergistic connotations. However, that's not what the word means or implies.<br /><br />In philosophical usage, A is a necessary condition of B if B cannot obtain apart from A. <br /><br />And this is entirely consistent with predestination. For instance, Christ rising from the dead depends on Christ dying. Christ dying depends on Christ being alive. Christ being alive depends on Christ's conception in the womb.<br /><br />The Resurrection is conditioned on the Crucifixion, which is conditioned on the Incarnation.<br /><br />Likewise, the death of Christ is contingent on certain human actions: Judas betrays him, the Sanhedrin condemns him, Pilate capitulates to the mob.<br /><br />Joseph becoming prime minister of Egypt depends on his interpreting Pharaoh's dreams, which depends on Pharaoh having dreams.<br /><br />Likewise, it depends on Joseph's incarceration, where he acquires his reputation as a oneiromantist.<br /><br />His incarceration depends on a false accusation of rape by his master's wife.<br /><br />That, in turn, depends on his brother's selling him into slavery.<br /> <br />And that depends on Joseph having a dream that he shares with them, which makes them resent him.<br /><br />These are examples of historical causation. Nested events. Causally interlocking events where one thing must happen before another thing can happen. <br /><br />But every link in the chain of events can be predestined. <br /><br />There's even conditionality in the decree. Teleological conditionality, where certain ends are dependent on certain means. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-82685235563839539522015-06-29T13:01:19.403-04:002015-06-29T13:01:19.403-04:00My actual statement was: "I mean we are comma...My actual statement was: "I mean we are commanded to not repay evil with evil, and we are typically not in the position of authority to punish the guilty party..." The AND was meant that both of these should go together.<br /><br />I get what you're saying about overlooking offenses, so no qualms there...<br /><br />My question is what does "Conditional Forgiveness" do? What does it look like??<br />I brought up Chris Brauns' view point about reconciliation as a question. I understand that you differentiate them.<br />I also maintain that seeking to repay evil with evil is not acceptable, whether there has been forgiveness or not.<br /><br />So my question remains, does it not?<br />What does conditional forgiveness do / look like? I really don't know.<br />Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15802272497315618642015-06-29T12:52:28.401-04:002015-06-29T12:52:28.401-04:00Steve, with all due respect, I'm not a diction...Steve, with all due respect, I'm not a dictionary... But... indiscriminate is "done at random or without careful judgment" while unconditional is "not subject to any conditions", such as unconditional surrender with is a specific act. <br />Let's move on though, because this argumentation is somewhat of a red herring diverting from substance of the issue.<br /><br />Next...Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19798574171625514332015-06-29T12:49:30.692-04:002015-06-29T12:49:30.692-04:00"Yes, but all of those things would be in def..."Yes, but all of those things would be in defiance of the command not to repay evil with evil."<br /><br />I'm simply giving counterexamples to how you framed the issue: "Not in a position of authority to punish the guilty party."<br /><br />One needn't be in a position of authority to exact revenge. That's not the same as a judicial process. <br /><br />"However, it seems to me that reconciliation is categorically different from forgiveness."<br /><br />Since I myself explicitly distinguished the two (repeatedly), how is your observation contrary to my stated position?<br /><br />"But don't we forgive people with whom we have close relationships by overlooking most of their minor offenses?"<br /><br />Depends on what you mean. Do you mean forgiveness is one way of overlooking minor offenses? Or do you mean forgiveness is defined by overlooking minor offenses?<br /><br />As a matter of human experience, the two are distinguishable. Because we're social creatures, we need to get along with some people. But people can be aggravating to be around. However, we realize that's a two-way street.<br /><br />So in human relations there's often a pragmatic quid pro quo: I will overlook your irritating behavior if you overlook my irritating behavior.<br /><br />That's not the same thing as forgiveness.<br /><br />For now I'm not evaluating that pragmatic quid pro quo. I'm simply drawing attention to an obvious, common counterexample to defining forgiveness in terms of overlooking someone's faults. Oftentimes it's just a practical compromise. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-76175979906422228282015-06-29T12:37:14.231-04:002015-06-29T12:37:14.231-04:00How can something that's "without limitat...How can something that's "without limitations or conditions" not be indiscriminate and sweeping"? If it's without limitations or conditions, then it's generic rather than specific. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90052316414671931272015-06-28T17:08:06.838-04:002015-06-28T17:08:06.838-04:00Yes, but all of those things would be in defiance ...Yes, but all of those things would be in defiance of the command not to repay evil with evil.<br /><br />I'm just interested in what exactly conditional forgiveness actually is or does?<br /><br />According to Chris Braun's book, the only thing I could glean was it looks like restoration/reconciliation. <br /><br />However, it seems to me that reconciliation is categorically different from forgiveness. And it seems like there are plenty of times when reconciliation is not relevant - such as with unbelievers or those who we have no previous relationship with. Granted, iF the two parties are believers in the same church, or family members, or former friends, of course reconciliation should be the desired outcome we should hope for, and people should be encouraged to "go to one another" when their are serious conflicts. But don't we forgive people with whom we have close relationships by overlooking most of their minor offenses? Or perhaps you do not want that included in the category of forgiveness?<br /><br />Thanks!!<br />Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-27569337733667368702015-06-28T16:51:54.239-04:002015-06-28T16:51:54.239-04:00But unconditional isn't synonymous with blanke...But unconditional isn't synonymous with blanket. Blanket is indiscriminate, sweeping, and all-inclusive. Unconditional is specific, but without limitations or conditions. So, strictly based on definitions I do think it's a bit of strawman. My point of course is that people like myself who support unconditional forgiveness don't necessarily see it as an automatic, knee jerk thing that we just have to do.<br />Tim Keller writes about this, saying:<br />"However, to refrain from (retaliation toward) someone when you want to do so with all your being is agony. It is a form of suffering. You not only suffer the original loss of happiness, reputation, and opportunity, but now you forgo the consolation of inflicting the same on them. You are absorbing the debt, taking the cost of it completely on yourself instead of taking it out of the other person. It hurts terribly. Many people would say it feels like a kind of death.<br /><br />"Yes, but it is a death that leads to resurrection instead of the lifelong living death of bitterness and cynicism... no one "just" forgives, if the evil is serious... Everyone who forgives great evil goes through a death into a resurrection, and experiences nails, blood, sweat, and tears... Everyone who forgives someone bears the other's sins...<br /><br />"Forgiveness is always a form of costly suffering."<br /><br />I just wanted to be clear that one can practice unconditional forgiveness for personal wrongs and not have it mean minimizing the harm. Thanks! Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-12968068789415533312015-06-28T14:11:30.548-04:002015-06-28T14:11:30.548-04:00It's hardly a "straw man" to treat u...It's hardly a "straw man" to treat unconditional forgiveness as synonymous with blanket forgiveness. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10340619581197679382015-06-28T13:51:21.993-04:002015-06-28T13:51:21.993-04:00"And if personal forgiveness is not about rep..."And if personal forgiveness is not about replacing 'feelings of wrath and resentment and vengeance with feelings of kindness, affection, and love.'-- then what is does it mean to forgive someone from the heart? What is left?"<br /><br />That's a false dichotomy. The fact that (human) Christian forgiveness is not reducible to one's psychological state doesn't mean that never figures in forgiveness. But it's unbiblical to disregard the realm of action. <br /><br />"I mean we are commanded to not repay evil with evil, and we are typically not in the position of authority to punish the guilty party..."<br /><br />Depends on what you mean by "punishment." You don't have to be "in a position of authority" to take punitive measures or retaliate. Then are many unofficial ways to be vindictive.<br /><br />Take vendettas. Suppose I burn down my enemy's house while he's away. Or set his corn field on fire. Or open the gate to let his livestock escape. Or poison his livestock. <br /><br />For that matter, it was much easier to get away with murder in ancient times, before the rise of modern forensics, security cameras, &c. <br /><br />Or take family feuds. Family members who make each other miserable by spiteful tit-for-tat. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-75337301124523724372015-06-28T13:35:40.389-04:002015-06-28T13:35:40.389-04:00No engagement here, so this may not be read. True ...No engagement here, so this may not be read. True forgiveness is not automatic or easy, or blanket. The whole point of it is that this kind of forgiveness is incredibly difficult. It requires self-denial and is really the fruit of those whose lives have been hidden in Christ. So the title is a bit of straw man. Peace. God bless.Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-31890223574874940172015-06-27T14:36:02.421-04:002015-06-27T14:36:02.421-04:00Thank you for interacting with these statements an...Thank you for interacting with these statements and questions. It is truly helpful in terms of thinking through the issues.<br />I do have one question that I haven't quite understood from the "conditional forgiveness" viewpoint perspective.<br /><br />If personal forgiveness is not to be equated with divine judgment and wrath, as I think you agreed. And if personal forgiveness is not about replacing "feelings of wrath and resentment and vengeance with feelings of kindness, affection, and love." -- then what is does it mean to forgive someone from the heart? What is left?<br /><br />You may have touched on it by saying that it's "about refusing to even the score when you're in a position to do so. Not punishing the guilty party", but I think that is a bit circular, is it not? I mean we are commanded to not repay evil with evil, and we are typically not in the position of authority to punish the guilty party...<br /><br />If I could understand what this "Biblical Forgiveness" that is conditioned on the unbeliever or believer;s repentance actually is then, maybe iI would agree. <br /><br />(My guess is that we might have the same thing in mind, but we disagree with how to label them. I could be wrong, of course, as I am prone to be) :)... Thank you!!<br /><br />Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.com