tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post1697722813988275374..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Internal Inconsistencies in LoftusianityRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67929147336968506942007-04-11T15:06:00.000-04:002007-04-11T15:06:00.000-04:00Listen up, I'm tired of you guys making fun of me....Listen up, I'm tired of you guys making fun of me. I know when I'm not wanted. You do this to atheists when you can't answer their *arguments*. So, I'm off this site. I'm done with you guys. I'll leave you to your self-delusion. I'm done with you.<BR/><BR/>DONE.<BR/><BR/>(well, at least for the next 40 minutes or so. Unless you say something that bothers me before then)John W. Lostushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07487692954588047858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-49577887895717913682007-04-11T14:52:00.000-04:002007-04-11T14:52:00.000-04:00Danny, don't impose your morality on us.Danny, don't impose your morality on us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8966795575424356272007-04-11T12:36:00.000-04:002007-04-11T12:36:00.000-04:00Just noticed that my above post came as anonymous...Just noticed that my above post came as anonymous: "as I travel around the blog..". That was not intentional.Danny Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15006024707303951009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-11155290703049133562007-04-11T11:58:00.000-04:002007-04-11T11:58:00.000-04:00What he said.What he said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62254140606539841942007-04-11T11:56:00.000-04:002007-04-11T11:56:00.000-04:00As I travel around the blogosphere, I have noticed...As I travel around the blogosphere, I have noticed much confusion concerning these concepts. I have noticed some angry and judgemental words being spoken against anyone suggesting that what is wrong for them might also be wrong for another thus causing them to be judgemental, which is hateful. As a result, I am going to clear this concept up once and for all.<BR/><BR/>Now the first rule concerning sin is that it doesn't exist outside of your own life and the reality of that said life. This is true for all people and binding so as to prevent any personal moralities from being imposed on another. As with all rules however there are exceptions. The first exception is that since something that is wrong for you is not necessarily wrong for someone else so there is a sub-rule to the that rule which is that Its forbidden to forbid. There are exceptions it seems to this also in a general sense. The first exception is that it is forbidden to judge. Again there are exceptions to that one too. Its OK to judge people that do judge as being intolerant, which is a bad thing which makes it immoral, which is OK I guess because to be immoral would require an over riding objective reality which will not be tolerated because it doesn't exist which is why forbidding in the first place is judged as oppressive given that over riding objective realities don't exist except for those exceptions fore-named which are to be tolerated so that intolerance want be forbidden. Wait a minute... intolerance is forbidden, which means that not only can judging be forbidden, but also intolerance, which means that forbidding, and intolerance find themselves in the exception clause of the do not forbid rule above, making it OK to impose on another a non existent non objective and overriding morality because since those things don't exist its OK to impose them, making it OK to judge those that do impose them as as intolerant and so also bigots.<BR/><BR/>Above all we are to love one another and not hate. We know that hate is the result of intolerance and that only those that do try to impose their morality on another are ultimately capable of hating unless the morality imposed is that we should love and not hate which judged by the exceptions fore mentioned would be impossible because of the prerequisite of an overriding morality which which is known not to exist and so therefore is forbidden thus will not tolerated, lest one be judged as a bigot, which I can't think of anything worse that could happen to anyone, can you?<BR/><BR/>You see, its all very simple so the next time you see any intolerant behavior suggest to that intolerant bigot that he be less hateful, *HATEFUL*, and more loving like us, OK?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47380001907879952772007-04-11T11:38:00.000-04:002007-04-11T11:38:00.000-04:00I hear ya, anon.Those atheists are just like puppe...I hear ya, anon.<BR/><BR/>Those atheists are just like puppets, dancing to the strings of the puppet master...<BR/><BR/>almost as of their moron actions are predetermined....<BR/><BR/>oh wait, they are! I can't forget my Reformed Theolgy.<BR/><BR/>Atheist = moron<BR/><BR/>QEDAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64583264598343609672007-04-11T11:26:00.000-04:002007-04-11T11:26:00.000-04:00Wow. Look at the atheist get so upset. I feel ba...Wow. Look at the atheist get so upset. I feel bad for these guys. They're so easy to get flustered. They're like a little candy dispenser; put in a quarter, get a reaction. Happens every time. Must suck to be them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45175777631380137112007-04-11T11:00:00.000-04:002007-04-11T11:00:00.000-04:00HAW HAW HAW!!!Those atheist morons that love to co...HAW HAW HAW!!!<BR/><BR/>Those atheist morons that love to come on here and post.<BR/><BR/>DUH!!!! Atheist scum!!! don't you know the Bible doesn't even mention exponentials, or algebra? MORONS!!!! <BR/><BR/>Sheesh. I'm glad God blessed me with half a brain, compared to those atheists that only have 10*.06 times a brain.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86495671014917608052007-04-11T10:56:00.000-04:002007-04-11T10:56:00.000-04:00Mr. Moody said,"So, if I read this out lout it say...Mr. Moody said,<BR/><BR/><I>"So, if I read this out <B>lout</B> it says:"</I><BR/><BR/>I actually don't know what it means if you read it out "lout." Is that special atheist language? Secret atheist code?<BR/><BR/>Lout can mean:<BR/><BR/>a) an awkward, stupid person; clumsy, ill-mannered boor; oaf. <BR/><BR/>b) to flout; treat with contempt; scorn.<BR/><BR/>And so when I import the definition into the word, the sentence doesn't make sense.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you're trying to say that if you act like a jerk when you read the sentence in the said post, you have a hard time understanding it just because you want to treat theists with contempt? Or, perhaps you're an oaf?<BR/><BR/>I don't know, I guess I'll never be smart enough to be an atheist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62320713434057065992007-04-11T10:50:00.000-04:002007-04-11T10:50:00.000-04:00Nice comprehension skills, Mr. Moody. Do you have...Nice comprehension skills, Mr. Moody. Do you have the special atheist reading glasses on, or something?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-392983198182565302007-04-11T10:48:00.000-04:002007-04-11T10:48:00.000-04:00I think it means Loftus is 10,000 times lower in h...I think it means Loftus is 10,000 times lower in his intelleigence than Sapient is. Use the little brain God gave you, little fella.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-43615784809638908412007-04-11T10:40:00.000-04:002007-04-11T10:40:00.000-04:00So, if I read this out lout it says:"100 times 100...So, if I read this out lout it says:<BR/><BR/>"100 times 100 times below...."<BR/><BR/>Is that special "Bible Math," similar to PI = 3?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-59639849200711284272007-04-11T10:33:00.000-04:002007-04-11T10:33:00.000-04:00* is a multiplication symbol* is a multiplication symbolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69539720499771394872007-04-11T05:51:00.000-04:002007-04-11T05:51:00.000-04:00I'm still trying to figure out this quote:"John Lo...I'm still trying to figure out this quote:<BR/><BR/>"John Loftus is about 100*100 times below a Martin while Hays is 1*5 times below John Frame (btw, that's no insult to Frame, it's a compliment to Steve!)."<BR/><BR/>Are you saying that Hays is equal to Frame, since "1 to the 5th" is still equal to 1?<BR/><BR/>My math is fuzzy, but don't blame me, I went to private school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-77222789150193843192007-04-10T22:54:00.000-04:002007-04-10T22:54:00.000-04:00Okay, that one was good. I'm not an advocate of t...Okay, that one was good. I'm not an advocate of the style many of the Triablogue guys, just not my personal temperment. I don't say what they do is wrong, per se, just a different style, I guess. However, I would say that I don't see an alternative when talking to John Loftus. He ignores almost every point and argument you guys make, and constantly changes the subject. Objective, detached, honest, and sarcasticless dialog seem impossible. So, with John Loftus (and maybe a few others) I fully support your approach.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10707534641821512782007-04-10T22:32:00.000-04:002007-04-10T22:32:00.000-04:00Guys, Loftus never committed adultery, that's his ...Guys, Loftus never committed adultery, that's his cover story. He failed my theology 101 class. He came to me, crying, and said that his Mum wouldn't pay for his education anymore, nor would she send him money to go to Family Fun Center (that's what it was called back in '85). To be honest, I saw him playing miniature golf while all his friends where studying. He missed an easy shot through the windmill and started raging on the little kids! It was unbelievable! Anyway, Loftus came to me after school one day. He started "YELLING" at me and saying things like:<BR/><BR/>"Billy, you don't know anything about theology. NOTHING. Be honest. You got your Ph.D. from a diploma mill. Answer me and do not lie! NOW!"<BR/><BR/>I'm serious. Well, I had to call security. Loftus was removed from campus, but soon after we started having cherry bombs going off in the boy's bathrooms. I just know it was Loftus. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, Loftus tried to threaten me. He sent me a letter (on a Hello Kitty note pad of all things?) and said that he would become an atheist if I didn't give him at least a C-. I, because of my convictions, wouldn't agree. He then sent me his last letter and said, "Billy, I am now an atheist. Try and live with the guilt. THE GUILT!"<BR/><BR/>I have never told him this but... I actually wanted him to become an atheist. He was my worst student and I just knew he could do theism more good as an atheist than a theist.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, jokes on you, John. Cat's out of the bag now. The truth has set us free. I've been waiting 22 years to tell that story. Oh and by the way, in gym class the students at TEDS used to give John melvins in the locker room. You should have heard him: "Don't touch me, I'll tell Bill on you. You will all suffer. SUFFER!. I'm going to be the greatest theologian alive. GREATEST. ALIVE. THEOLOGIAN!"<BR/><BR/>Ahhh, those were great years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-24405228825246329352007-04-10T21:00:00.000-04:002007-04-10T21:00:00.000-04:00"“I also believe that life it better from my persp...<I>"“I also believe that life it better from my perspective, having been a former Christian myself. I can be more...well...human.”"</I><BR/><BR/>Isn't this from the same guy that said he wanted to be a dog, or a bird, or something?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-20250730238307799612007-04-10T20:53:00.000-04:002007-04-10T20:53:00.000-04:00“So let's have done with this crap that you raise ...“So let's have done with this crap that you raise every time I back you in a corner by saying I think there is nothing intrinsically good.”<BR/><BR/>Well, John, I’m much too genteel to indulge in bovine metaphors, yet if you yourself admit to the high agricultural content of your value-system, who am I to take issue with your candid self-criticism?<BR/><BR/>But be that as it may, I can well understand how humiliating it must be to have someone quote your own words back to you and hold you to the terms of your stated position. Life is so unfair. <BR/><BR/>“You're still attacking me, claiming to know my motivations, even though I spelled out my motivation on my blog.”<BR/><BR/>Hmm. And this is some of what Loftus has to say on that score:<BR/><BR/>“Atheists have offered suggestions why people turn to religion. Sigmund Freud claimed that religion is an expression of the longing for a father figure. Ludwig Feuerbach claimed that God didn’t make man in his image, but rather we made God in our image. Karl Marx taught that religion is the opium of the working class people. It is funded and pushed by the rich class in order to numb the working class from trying to right the injustices put on them by the rich class. Religion keeps the working class focused on a hope of bliss in the hereafter. Friedrich Nietzsche claimed that religion endures because weak people need it. For Jean Paul Sartre, God represented a threat to authentic morality.”<BR/><BR/>Wow. It sure looks like our fiend John Loftus doesn’t hesitate to psychoanalyze the motives of Christian believers. <BR/><BR/>“I am a teacher, so I’m also against people believing in wrongheaded Christian ideas that I tend to think are based upon ignorance, although that’s the stuff that maddens me, since many apologists don’t seem ignorant at all!”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t believe that ignorant, wrong-headed idea are intrinsically wrong.<BR/><BR/>“I also believe that life it better from my perspective, having been a former Christian myself. I can be more...well...human.”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t believe the secular lifestyle is intrinsically better than Christianity.<BR/><BR/> “Church people are stuffy people who are so judgmental.”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t believe that it’s intrinsically wrong to be stuffy or judgmental.<BR/><BR/>“Don’t get me wrong here, I still am every bit the honest and good person I was before.”<BR/><BR/>Why, John? You don’t believe it’s intrinsically good to be a good person. You don’t believe that honesty is an intrinsic value.<BR/><BR/>“And I love the fact that my thinking is not hamstrung by fear of being cast into hell, hence I'm a freethinker.”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t believe that fear of hell is intrinsically wrong. <BR/><BR/>“I also love being good to people just because I want to, and not because I have to, and I am.”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t believe it’s intrinsically good to be good to people.<BR/><BR/>“Lacking this intimacy some of them have resorted to the crime of molesting altar boys, and have received prison sentences and the disgrace of it all.”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t believe that child molestation is intrinsically evil. <BR/><BR/>“Atheists generally think Christian theism inhibits scientific progress, creates class struggles, sexism, homophobia, racism, mass neurosis, intolerance and environmental disasters.”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t think it’s intrinsically wrong to inhibit scientific progress, creates class warfare, sexism, homophobia, racism, mass neurosis, intolerance, and environmental disaster.<BR/><BR/>“Christians have a false and irrational hope, but just don’t know it.”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t believe that a false and irrational hope is intrinsically wrong.<BR/><BR/>“ They are simply deluded into thinking their lives have some grand ultimate purpose.”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t believe delusional thinking is intrinsically evil. <BR/><BR/>“In my opinion Christianity is an extremely guilt producing faith, and I only realized it after I left it.”<BR/><BR/>But you don’t believe that guilty feelings are intrinsically evil.<BR/><BR/>Sorry to keep reminding you of your own disclaimer. But since you constantly pose as a moralist, we need to remember that your every indignant value-judgment comes with a little asterisk. <BR/><BR/>“If I see a pretty girl I can imagine what she looks like naked if I want to.”<BR/><BR/>Ah, we finally arrived at his true motive for defecting from the faith.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32759320196580568622007-04-10T20:12:00.000-04:002007-04-10T20:12:00.000-04:00Loftus doesn't want to deal with my arguments and ...Loftus doesn't want to deal with my arguments and refutations of his positions, and so he's decided to talk about all sorts of stuff *besides* my arguments. His tactic is to malign and belittle us ;-), so that, he hopes, people will ignore our arguments and side with poor John and spend time discussing his hurt feelings rather than his bad arguments. But, even his rabbit trails are subject to refutation. See below:<BR/><BR/><I>JL: Paul, I had a class with Bill Craig in 1985, called simply, "Plantinga's Thought." I took the class probably at the same time you were in diapers. We read most everything he had written, plus some, and we discussed it.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>PM: And? I mean, his warrant trilogy was all put out after the 90's! All his big stuff on RE was *after* 85, John. So, John's classes actually bear very little on the discussion. <BR/><BR/>And, this does nothing to show that you understand Plantinga, or have an answer to my arguments against you, and my answers to your"arguments."<BR/><BR/><I>JL: I had a great deal of difficulty with it then, and I don't accept it now. Why do you continue claiming you know so much more than me, as if that's so important to you. Do you actually think that the reason people like me don't believe is because we don't know as much as you do? Your theology says otherwise, you know.</I><BR/><BR/>PM: And? If you had difficulty with 1+1 equaling 2 should I bow down to that and find mathematics "laughable?"<BR/><BR/>And, I know I know more about Plantinga's thought than you do. But, I'm not basing any argumentative weight on it. It's just a fact. Your statements prove you're very unconversant with his thought. Knowing a few Plantinginian buzz phrases isn't going to scare me into believing that "Loftus knows his Plantinga."<BR/><BR/>And, I don't think you have "reasons" for not believing.<BR/><BR/>Lastly, this does nothing to show that you understand Plantinga, or have an answer to my arguments against you, and my answers to your "arguments."<BR/><BR/><I>JL: "There is so much to say about RE that I'll just refer you to the literature. Try the latest stuff from Nicholas Everitt, for instance, on the Non-Existence of God. "</I><BR/><BR/>PM: What about it, John? Do you seriously think that name dropping is going to scare me? Do you think that just mentioning a name, and telling me to read the literature, is supposed to get you off the hook?<BR/><BR/>Lastly, this does nothing to show that you understand Plantinga, or have an answer to my arguments against you, and my answers to your "arguments."<BR/><BR/><I>JL: "Remember, it was Triablogue which engaed me in a debate in the first place. I didn't even know you existed until some of you started attacking me."</I><BR/><BR/>PM: Actually, John, you should get your dates straight. I had been discussing the idea that all men believe in God on Reppert's *before* I ever heard of you. It was then *YOU* who wrote a (sorry) response to the argument. I then refuted your response, showing *how bad* you were unfamiliar with presuppositionalism, and so it was me who *responded* to you. I then called in to you on Gene Cook's radio show (where you stammered and studdered, admitting you couldn't answer me). So, Press The Antithesis *responded* to you and *then* T-blog jumped into the discussion. So, it was *John* who "engaged" me in debate in the first place. So, it looks like any weight you think your point had must now be used against you.<BR/><BR/>And, this does nothing to show that you understand Plantinga, or have an answer to my arguments against you, and my answers to your "arguments."<BR/><BR/><I>JL: "You're still attacking me, claiming to know my motivations, even though I spelled out my motivation on my blog. "</I><BR/><BR/>PM: I've been attacking your arguments. Rather than deal with my arguments and answers you're attempting to make people throw a pity party for Loftus. Woe is Loftus.<BR/><BR/>And, this does nothing to show that you understand Plantinga, or have an answer to my arguments against you, and my answers to your "arguments."<BR/><BR/>I have answered Loftus. I have also refuted his arguments he thinks allows him to avoid my tu quoque. So, I've shown that we can trust our beliefs, and I've shown that Loftus cannot trust his (as aimed at producing true beliefs). Loftus therefore has a defeater for *all* of his anti-theistic arguments. He must doubt *all* of them.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-65430073944346067412007-04-10T19:33:00.000-04:002007-04-10T19:33:00.000-04:00I thought he said he was "done" with all this anyw...I thought he said he was "done" with all this anyway! Why does he keep coming back then? Some sort of masochistic tendency? Seriously if this is so maligning and demeaning then move on and forget it. It's not good for your health....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26879882383765661142007-04-10T19:19:00.000-04:002007-04-10T19:19:00.000-04:00Oh, and for the record, we've dispassionately deal...Oh, and for the record, we've dispassionately dealt with his "arguments" ad nauseum. But he would rather pass over our counterarguments in silence—since he can't answer them—and simply repeat himself.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-3823318738596954332007-04-10T19:16:00.000-04:002007-04-10T19:16:00.000-04:00John W. Loftus said:Actually, if you'd prefer that...John W. Loftus said:<BR/>Actually, if you'd prefer that I go away then here's the deal. Stop personally maligning me. Deal in a dispassionate way with my arguments all you want to, but refrain from belittling and demeaning me, and I'll let you go on your merry ways.<BR/><BR/>I bristle when you do this.<BR/><BR/>**************************<BR/><BR/>And why would Loftus bristle? He doesn't believe that it's intrinsically wrong to malign, belittle, or demean him. Anyway, I'm sure he'll forgive us. After all, even if he thinks our characterizations are unjust, what does justice have to do with forgiveness?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62696125761908832052007-04-10T18:32:00.000-04:002007-04-10T18:32:00.000-04:00And in the 20 years since Lofty took a class on Pl...And in the 20 years since Lofty took a class on Plantinga, he's managed to forget everything about it quite nicely. Just like he's apparently forgotten everything that was ever taught in <I>SUNDAY SCHOOL</I>, let alone the weightier matters.<BR/><BR/>Frankly, all Loftus's argumentation does is make me doubt his credentials. I can't see someone actually graduating from any institution (aside from publik highskrewls) with this complete non-understanding of basic logic.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45412811446805339802007-04-10T17:53:00.000-04:002007-04-10T17:53:00.000-04:00Actually, if you'd prefer that I go away then here...Actually, if you'd prefer that I go away then here's the deal. Stop personally maligning me. Deal in a dispassionate way with my arguments all you want to, but refrain from belittling and demeaning me, and I'll let you go on your merry ways.<BR/><BR/>I bristle when you do this. It makes me want to engage you. And I think you know this. But I suspect you won't refrain. It makes you feel superior. It makes you feel you have a superior belief system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-17896492427255195982007-04-10T17:44:00.000-04:002007-04-10T17:44:00.000-04:00*ahem*Now that Steve and Paul believe, no one else...*ahem*<BR/><BR/><I>Now that Steve and Paul believe, no one else has a right to doubt anything.</I> <BR/><BR/>Remember, it was Triablogue which engaed me in a debate in the first place. I didn't even know you existed until some of you started attacking me.<BR/><BR/>You're still attacking me, claiming to know my motivations, even though I spelled out my motivation on my blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com