tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post1574656520477195664..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Jesus Christ SuperstarRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-2113620012229553542009-10-12T03:36:32.332-04:002009-10-12T03:36:32.332-04:00Rick,
The reason why there is a "difference&...Rick,<br /><br />The reason why there is a "difference" between the Jesus of Luke 9 and Rev. 14 is because this the age of Gospel of Grace. As the (God Incarnate) Messiah, He came to preach/herald the Kingdom of God. People who hear the Gospel are being given an opportunity to be saved. That's why the Lord Jesus didn't want the people judged at the present time.<br /><br />Luke 9:56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.<br /><br />However, when Christ returns, that's the time for Judgement. This is so basic, I don't know how you could miss it. There are many parables in which Jesus delays judgement for the last day.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19918010568520092142009-10-08T12:15:02.026-04:002009-10-08T12:15:02.026-04:00RICK LANNOYE SAID:
“Let's summarize your coun...RICK LANNOYE SAID:<br /><br />“Let's summarize your counter argument against the many questions I raised about your belief that God is going to torture billions of people for all eternity: ‘...because it says so in some ancient writings, and you better not listen to Rick Lannoye because he's an ex-hippie prejudiced by his Christian upbringing’."<br /><br />i) To the contrary, I offered a number of specific counterarguments to your arguments–such as they are. And I notice that you don’t respond to my specific counterarguments.<br /><br />ii) You also haven’t shown that, according to me, “God” is going to “torture” billions of people forever. <br /><br />You need to establish that (a) “torture” is involved and (b) God is the agent.<br /><br />“Look, whenever we see someone who feels the need to PERSONALLY attack an opponent in a debate, it's a really good indication that he senses his arguments are weak! If you really felt you had a firm foundation to counter argue from, you would simply debate the points, not attempt to get others to ignore my points (clearly, for the fear they would be convincing!) on the basis of your claims that I'm prejudiced by prior experiences.”<br /><br />You were the one who chose to put your deconversion testimony on public display. And you did that as a polemical tactic. You’ve made your autobiography part of your case against the Christian faith.<br /><br />So your personal experience is fair game. You made it so. Your deconversion testimony is a double-edged sword. <br /><br />If you don’t like that, then leave yourself out of your atheology. <br /><br />“So, if by some chance you could, going forward, manage to debate the ISSUES, please try to respond accordingly!”<br /><br />False dichotomy. I did both. And you’re the one who made yourself the issue by publicizing your deconversion testimony.<br /><br />“Explain, for example, how it is that the Jesus of Luke 9:51-56, the one who was very incensed when his disciples wanted to subject a villageful of people to a few minutes of fiery torture until they died, could in any way possible be the same Jesus in Revelation who orders billions of souls to be cast into the Lake of Fire to be tortured with no end? The Jesus of Luke 9 said, to speak even in those limited terms of torturous punishment was to be inspired by the Unholy Spirit. Imagine if THAT Jesus were asked about torturing BILLIONS of people as an ETERNAL punishment? No doubt he would have been far, far more distraught!”<br /><br />Well, for starters, you’re comparing the incomparable. The lake of fire is figurative. Don’t you know a metaphor when you see it? To be “tortured” by figurative flames isn’t real torture. Try to read the Bible at something above a Sunday school level. Try to outgrow your persistent intellectual immaturity.<br /><br />“But either way, the core message of Jesus is diametrically opposed to the later writings which eventually made their way into the New Testament.”<br /><br />Of course, you arbitrarily isolate a “core” message. Your procedure is viciously circular.<br /><br />We don’t have to look to “later NT writings” to find fiery images of the eschatological judgment. We can find that in Matthew. Or Thessalonians. <br /><br />Indeed, we can find that in the OT, which antedates the NT–even on liberal dating schemes.<br /><br />“Of course, the Evangelicals would have us ignore Jesus' core message of compassion and forgiveness and caring and empathy, and direct our focus solely upon those handful of adulterations that make it seem the God of Jesus was a maniacal torture freak, especially since this view of God suits their political purposes much better.”<br /><br />Of course, that allegation is reversible. The religious left would have us ignore pervasive OT and NT statements regarding eschatological judgment–especially since that view of God suits their political purposes much better.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19071942431693475042009-10-08T11:23:31.958-04:002009-10-08T11:23:31.958-04:00Steve,
Let's summarize your counter argument ...Steve,<br /><br />Let's summarize your counter argument against the many questions I raised about your belief that God is going to torture billions of people for all eternity: "...because it says so in some ancient writings, and you better not listen to Rick Lannoye because he's an ex-hippie prejudiced by his Christian upbringing."<br /><br />Oh boy! The old ad hominum distraction tactic!<br /><br />Look, whenever we see someone who feels the need to PERSONALLY attack an opponent in a debate, it's a really good indication that he senses his arguments are weak! <br /><br />If you really felt you had a firm foundation to counter argue from, you would simply debate the points, not attempt to get others to ignore my points (clearly, for the fear they would be convincing!) on the basis of your claims that I'm prejudiced by prior experiences.<br /><br />Plus, calling into question my "authority" is unnecessary, in that, unlike so many others, I make no claim to be a special authority and, therefore, I don't ask to just be taken at my word. No, the way I debate is to let the arguments speak for themselves! If my points are valid, they will prevail on their own!<br /><br />So, if by some chance you could, going forward, manage to debate the ISSUES, please try to respond accordingly!<br /><br />Explain, for example, how it is that the Jesus of Luke 9:51-56, the one who was very incensed when his disciples wanted to subject a villageful of people to a few minutes of fiery torture until they died, could in any way possible be the same Jesus in Revelation who orders billions of souls to be cast into the Lake of Fire to be tortured with no end? The Jesus of Luke 9 said, to speak even in those limited terms of torturous punishment was to be inspired by the Unholy Spirit. Imagine if THAT Jesus were asked about torturing BILLIONS of people as an ETERNAL punishment? No doubt he would have been far, far more distraught!<br /><br />The point is, one cannot make a justified argument that "every word" in the modern gospels is infallible and completely consistent, and therefore, we must accept that the few passages which place Hell on Jesus lips must be taken to be true.<br /><br />Sure, Jesus may have been just a man, and there is no God. Or, he may have been sent from God. But either way, the core message of Jesus is diametrically opposed to the later writings which eventually made their way into the New Testament. Regardless of whether you believe Jesus was correct about the nature of God or prejudiced (perhaps he, too, was a sort of ex-hippie that thought God was a lot nicer than he actually was!), what you cannot say is that his core message is consistent with the adulterations that were injected much later.<br /><br />Of course, the Evangelicals would have us ignore Jesus' core message of compassion and forgiveness and caring and empathy, and direct our focus solely upon those handful of adulterations that make it seem the God of Jesus was a maniacal torture freak, especially since this view of God suits their political purposes much better.Rick Lannoyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15771612313060169125noreply@blogger.com