tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post107218901301727348..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: In Ancient Rome, the worship of ‘gods’ morphed into the veneration of ‘saints’ Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28393006200534172372016-07-23T21:07:47.117-04:002016-07-23T21:07:47.117-04:00Hey Byzas,
Have I told you how m...Hey Byzas,<br /> Have I told you how much I love you lately?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01066694173362543732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-60512719109364800652016-07-23T21:00:26.740-04:002016-07-23T21:00:26.740-04:00Oops.
Cyril of Jerusalem says that prayers for the...Oops.<br />Cyril of Jerusalem says that prayers for the dead are Biblical and ALL Church Fathers advocate the practice. Let me guess they are ALL wrong about this but you have got it right? Check out the beautiful 'inscription of Abercius'. All the archaeological evidence backs up the literary evidence. <br /><br />FYI - the early Lutherans had no problem with prayers for the dead. See 'Preaching the Reformation: The Homiletical Handbook of Urbanus Rhegius' (translated by Scott Hendrix) Marquette University Press, 2003, pages 99-107.<br />One of the BIG problems I have with the Reformation is that each generation of reformers changes what they consider to be 'biblical'.<br /><br />According to my copy of the Liber Pontificalis (Translated Texts for Historians) the route 'was similar' not identical to the earlier pagan procession. (page 184). <br /><br />The city council of Geneva built the Reformation Wall to honour their founders. The pagan Romans had statues of their gods. I don't know about you but building 2 metre high statues is a good example of venerating someone. So is having pictures in your wallet ( or phone) of children to showing them to people when they ask you about your family. <br /><br />Anyway, Orthodox have been arguing against Roman Catholic statues for 500 years before the Reformation. Yet, I can't think of anything more 'pagan' than some of the practices in modern evangelicalism. Having a rock concert and calling it worship. The cult of personality. The goings on amongst charismatics and Pentecostals. Greed masquerading as 'prosperity theology'. The treatment of the Bible as a 'magic book'. Byzashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07386398139477635913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-25516427301169507542016-07-23T20:31:04.978-04:002016-07-23T20:31:04.978-04:00John,
You have misunderstood Father John...John,<br /> You have misunderstood Father John McGuckin. He is simply talking about the unambiguous evidence on the episcopate. Anyway, as Orthodox we don't believe the New Testment is a 'how to' book on Church Government but Father John does not say it isn't Biblical. Father John says clearly that the New Testament evidence is ambiguous. I've met Father John a number of times and he hates how people go around and misuse what he says. The reason the Westminster Handbook to Patristic Theology is authored by an Orthodox priest is due to the lack specialty knowledge of Patristics by Reformed scholars. Anyway, Father John is a convert to Orthodoxy so that should show you have he interprets the Patristic evidence. Also, the entires in the WHPT are small articles. Father John has written 20 books why no look there for a more substantial discussion than the 300 words he uses for the entry in the handbook.<br /><br />Can I note the church is structured differently in Acts 1 to Acts 7 to Acts 28. Which one is the biblical model? Where does it say things will be fixed by Acts 28? I was wondering where are the wandering prophets and excorcists in modern evangelical churches?<br /><br />Since Ignatius of Antioch says the same things as Cyprian you can really accuse a monarchical episcopate to be a 3rd century development.<br /><br />A friend did show me Brandon Addison's article. I thought those guys at calledtocommunion did a good job at responding. My experience is that most large evangelical churches are episcopal anyway with their 'senior pastor' who calls the shots. <br /><br />I don't see any evidence for bishops being appointed in the early church for other than life. I don't see a rotating leadership - if you have evidence please show me.<br />It is also really difficult for more than one person to hold the chalice during the Eucharist so only one person can be 'in charge' there. I could go on. <br /><br />Can you point out to me the Biblical evidence for 'Youth Pastors' and for twentysomething kids being appointed as pastors/elders?<br /><br />Going back to the main point of this discussion. The evidence for the veneration of saints goes back as far as there is evidence. Take the Martyrdom of Polycarp. Orthodox also have a solid Biblical basis (if you care to investigate) for the veneration of saints. That is why ALL of the Church Fathers had no problem with it. To accuse Athanasius, Augustine, John Chrysostom, Basil, Ambrose or any of the rest as some kind of crypto-pagans is just lame.<br /><br />Respect is veneration. You just have a different cultural manifestation of it. Visiting a grave on an anniversary is a good example that is common to the past as well as the present. The early Christians visited the graves of the martyrs on the anniversary of their deaths. Clergy would give homilies to the congregation and invoke the help of these champions. As for prayers for the dead check out Cyril of Jerusalem for how Biblical they <br /><br />Byzashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07386398139477635913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15572063104837208272016-07-23T15:17:26.163-04:002016-07-23T15:17:26.163-04:00My tradition doesn't do the whole bowing down ...<i>My tradition doesn't do the whole bowing down to statues thing so I'm not going to defend it. Lighting candles is more my thing but you probably think that is pagan too.</i><br /><br />You probably shouldn't try to guess at what I probably think. <br /><br /><i>I can't think of a more Biblical theologian than Cyprian. Looks to me you have deep, deep issue about the Roman past of Christianity. </i><br /><br />The "priesthood" isn't Biblical. As the Eastern Orthodox patristic scholar John McGuckin notes (I'm borrowing from a friend <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2007/05/early-changes-in-church-government.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>), there were differences in church government between the apostolic and patristic sources:<br /><br /><i>“The very earliest structures of the Christian ministerial offices are shrouded in obscurity, but by the second century there emerged a triadic form of episkopos-bishop, presbyteros-elder (which was rendered by the Old English ‘Priest’), and diakonos-deacon. This more and more replaced a range of other offices that had characterized the earliest church (such as apostolic missionaries, wandering prophets, exorcists, and didaskaloi-teachers) and became established by the end of the second century as a common pattern in most Christian communities….</i><br /><br />It is an "ecclesiastical development" but it is not biblical. Continuing: <br /><br /><i>Although Jerome can still protest in the fourth century that the bishop and presbyter are really the same thing (and there is some ground to think this may have been so originally as the terms are interchangeable in the New Testament: Acts 20:17, 28; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Titus 1:5-7; and Clement of Rome uses the term in the plural [1 Clement 42; 44] to refer to the clergy of Rome), nevertheless his argument was already falling on deaf ears by his day….For all Cyprian’s insistence on his right to single episcopal authority, his own church wavered greatly over whether he, or the assembled presbyters, or the confessors had the higher standing….After the fourth century the Christian emperors increasingly honored the episcopate, and a tension can be noticed between its original conception as an office of liturgical president and teacher and its new functions as magistrate and administrator for a large diocesan area. </i>(The Westminster Handbook To Patristic Theology [Louisville, Kentucky: Westminster John Knox Press, 2004], pp. 120-122)<br /><br />See also: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2016/05/brandon-addisons-complete-response-to.html<br /><br />As for my "issues about the Roman past of Christianity", I don't have "issues", but I find no reason to feel myself bound by "ecclesiastical traditions" (or worse things) from centuries long past, put into place "for all time" by the Roman "church". <br /><br />Regarding the notion of "stop peddling discredited 19th century accusations", have you considered that Rome is peddling discredited 3rd century "developments" as dogmas that are normative for the 21st century church? John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26247744038984246642016-07-23T15:16:49.926-04:002016-07-23T15:16:49.926-04:00John,
sorry but respect is veneration.
That is no...<i>John,<br />sorry but respect is veneration.</i><br /><br />That is not true. My wife died last year, and I visited her grave site this week. I have very much respect for her, but there is no way I venerate her. <br /><br /><i>Ferguson is merely pointing out a similarity of behaviour, nothing more. I don't see any evidence of 'the firm' doing anything more than Christianising an existing habit.</i><br /><br />That's precisely what happened. It was an existing habit or custom, and the church at Rome "Christianized" it by swapping out the name of the saint for the pagan "god". So it's more than "similar behavior". It's "the same behavior" -- the only difference is that the names have changed from Roman "gods" to Roman "saints". <br /><br /><i>Just because someone like Roman Catholics abuse a practice like trafficking in relics doesn't mean the issue is with the practice. I know plenty of people of people who misuse the Bible. Doesn't mean we get rid of the Bible. </i><br /><br />Roman Catholicism basically ignores the Bible, so it is 0-for-2 in this. There is a whole range of different categories that become conflated when Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox talk about "veneration" -- from prayers "for" the dead, to "prayers to the dead" to simply using parts of their dead bodies as a good luck charm. <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/06/attempts-to-make-biblical-case-for.html" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is a good overview of why it is forbidden even to try to contact the dead. <br /><br />The Scriptures are different. If you believe in God, this is unique information that God gives to us that we can't get anywhere else. It is "divine revelation". Which, by the way, never says "pray to the dead". It includes among other things, information about who God is, and what the plan of salvation is. <br /><br /><i>Your evidence that a Roman procession kind of went the same way as a previous procession doesn't prove anything except people liked processions on main roads capable of accomodating a crowd.</i><br /><br />Right. It's only on the same day of the year (April 25). And instead of "praying to" the Roman "god" Robigus, the same route is taken with prayers to "St. Mark". Totally different. <br /><br />John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22994837676308530382016-07-23T06:26:19.821-04:002016-07-23T06:26:19.821-04:00John,
sorry but respect is veneration.
F...John,<br /> sorry but respect is veneration.<br /><br /> Ferguson is merely pointing out a similarity of behaviour, nothing more. I don't see any evidence of 'the firm' doing anything more than Christianising an existing habit. <br /><br />Just because someone like Roman Catholics abuse a practice like trafficking in relics doesn't mean the issue is with the practice. I know plenty of people of people who misuse the Bible. Doesn't mean we get rid of the Bible. <br /><br />Your evidence that a Roman procession kind of went the same way as a previous procession doesn't prove anything except people liked processions on main roads capable of accomodating a crowd.<br /><br />My tradition doesn't do the whole bowing down to statues thing so I'm not going to defend it. Lighting candles is more my thing but you probably think that is pagan too.<br /><br />I can't think of a more Biblical theologian than Cyprian. Looks to me you have deep, deep issue about the Roman past of Christianity.<br /><br />You are right that it is the 21st century. You should stop peddling discredited 19 th century accusations.Byzashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07386398139477635913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-79257240468921682782016-07-23T05:07:54.520-04:002016-07-23T05:07:54.520-04:00Not exactly a resounding endorsement of the belief...<i>Not exactly a resounding endorsement of the belief in the pagan origins of the veneration of the saints. The "new management" line is not Ferguson's opinion but him quoting another.</i><br /><br />Right, and he clarifies: "it was not the ancient religion [specifically] that survived" -- Robigalia did not survive in name but the practice of it survived in every other way. He says "the mentality that was part of it" definitely survived. As did the procession, in this case, the actual procession route through the city survived, plus the pick-up of the words of the prayer, and things prayed for. So "it may or may not be" described as "the old firm doing the same business at the same place under a new name and new management". There was no "firm" prior to the church of Rome endorsing the idea. The church of Rome then became a real "firm" endorsing the practice. The idea is there. <br /><br /><i>Every religious tradition on the planet has processions. To label them as being inspired by Roman pagan is ridiculous.</i><br /><br />And not "every religious tradition on the planet" has processions. I get that she is saying that humans have an impulse toward religion. This particular Roman "procession" also shared the exact same route through the city. <br /><br /><i>What gets me if you start comparing Christianity to paganism ( as some people like to do) you can come up with all sorts of comparison.</i><br /><br />But when supposed Christians are defending the bowing down to images, it's time to draw a line. In fact, in the 21st century, there are many things that Christians should jettison, should stop defending (because they are ridiculous), and there are core elements that we should defend (i.e. God exists and has spoken to us in his Word). <br /><br /><i>the veneration of saints is pre-Nicene</i><br /><br />There is no question that reverence for the dead was a component, and respectful treatment for (burial of) the bodies out of respect for the resurrection. Then at some point the carrying around of relics betrayed that respect. There was a process -- respect was not veneration, nor was it the much later "tradition" of the trafficking in relics. <br /><br />Just because something is "pre-Nicene" is not a justification for it. Cyprian's notion of a "priesthood" is pre-Nicene and we need to jettison that notion. <br /><br />"Commemoration" of those of our ancestors who were admirable is different from bowing down to them. John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-13045187163699140952016-07-23T01:36:22.065-04:002016-07-23T01:36:22.065-04:00Ferguson goes on to say "But this is perhaps ...Ferguson goes on to say "But this is perhaps says too much. It was not the ancient religion itself that survived but the mentality that was part of it." ( page 182). Not exactly a resounding endorsement of the belief in the pagan origins of the veneration of the saints. The "new management" line is not Ferguson's opinion but him quoting another. <br /><br />Ferguson also goes on to say "Its [Christanity] authority is not dependant on absolute originally in teaching and practice" (page 619).<br /><br />I get the point Shellee is making with her example of Buddhism ( you seem to misunderstand it). Every religious tradition on the planet has processions. To label them as being inspired by Roman pagan is ridiculous. It is simply a natural way people operate.<br /><br />What gets me if you start comparing Christianity to paganism ( as some people like to do) you can come up with all sorts of comparison.<br />The Greeks and Romans sung hymns to their gods. There survives a substantial selection of Homeric Hymns. Christians sing hymns. Obviously a pagan influence.<br />Pagans had sacred texts. Christians had the Bible. Again pagan.<br />Pagans built places of worship. So did Christians. More pagan influence.<br />Pagans wrote commentaries on their sacred texts like the Illiad. Christian scholars also wrote commentaries. Looks like another direct pagan influence.<br /><br />I'm an not a Roman Catholic but it is clear that the veneration of saints is pre-Nicene. Both east and west had no issue with it. Only with the Reformation did the charge of crypto- paganism come into vogue. Every single Church Father including Augustine, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nazianzus and Ephrem the Syrian had no problem and most even wrote homilies for the commemoration of the saints.Byzashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07386398139477635913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71354161300430875982016-07-22T07:29:25.494-04:002016-07-22T07:29:25.494-04:00"The Buddhist religion has ceremonies that in...<i>"The Buddhist religion has ceremonies that involve prayers and processions. According to your thinking this must because of the influence of Roman religion on Buddhism rather than a similarity of the human condition."</i><br /><br />This is a ridiculous suggestion. Buddhism did not pick up a widespread following in the city of Rome, as did the Roman "church". The Roman Catholic processions are almost direct pick-ups of ancient Roman pagan religion, in their form and intention. <br />John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5043519601702220752016-07-22T07:26:58.964-04:002016-07-22T07:26:58.964-04:00I'm not uncomfortable with the Biblical Christ...I'm not uncomfortable with the Biblical Christians who are wary of the celebration of Easter. <br /><br />There is enough of a link with pagan deities that I feel confident to say that we don't need, in our world, to be defending Roman Catholic (supposedly "Christian") reliance on old pagan deities. They should have been cast into the abyss long ago. <br /><br />It is enough to say, with Everett Ferguson, "In the Latin west and in the Greek east the church won only by detouring the traditional piety to other objects. The martyrs and the saints received the homage once given to the heroes and nature and household spirits. [This similarity] has often been observed. The old hung on: a sacred spring in antiquity kept on being a sacred spring. When Christianity replaced paganism, the saints took over the functions of the specialized local deities. The situation may be described as "the old firm doing the same business at the same place under a new name and new management" (Backgrounds of Early Christianity, 1993, pg 182). <br /><br />You have found yourself here defending not Christianity, but Christianity as it borrowed ancient pagan religions. We live in a 21st century that is quite hostile to Christianity. We should have no qualms about casting all of that off, as the Reformers tried to do. There is enough trouble in our own century, without having to hold onto ancient pagan religious baggage. John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44829351418551118222016-07-22T03:19:44.257-04:002016-07-22T03:19:44.257-04:00Considering the Roman calendar was filled with pag...Considering the Roman calendar was filled with pagan festivals there is not a day in the year that can't be associated with a festival of a pagan god. There are plenty out there that take a step further than you and consider Easter to be a pagan festival in disguise.<br /><br />There is plenty of evidence of Roman religion (like Ovid) and Greek religion as well but you don't really establish a link, just a similarly to what came before. Prayer is prayer, especially when you are asking for something. I think lots of prayers to God the Father and to Jesus are very similar to Greek prayers to Zeus. <br /><br />The Buddhist religion has ceremonies that involve prayers and processions. According to your thinking this must because of the influence of Roman religion on Buddhism rather than a similarity of the human condition.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01066694173362543732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19032160431702601082016-07-21T20:31:18.975-04:002016-07-21T20:31:18.975-04:00Interestingly, "Butler's Lives of the Sai...Interestingly, "Butler's Lives of the Saints" relates this same information about Robigalia. John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47545137313410417212016-07-21T19:38:45.633-04:002016-07-21T19:38:45.633-04:00Not problematic at all. Maybe “compiling the lists...Not problematic at all. Maybe “compiling the lists” was a medieval function, but the morphing of pagan-god-to-saint functionality took place on a case-by-case basis over time and in specific places and using specific functionalities. <br /><br />For example, <i>“Chief among the domestic gods were the Lares, called Lares Domestici or Lares Familares, who, together with the Penates were regularly worshipped in the Roman household.”</i> These are well-attested. <br /><br /><i> “The belief in these friendly and protecting house-spirits was so closely woven into the religious consciousness of the people that in various parts of Italy it survived the passing of that religious system of which it had been a part … this is the case of the figurines of the infant Jesus found in houses on the island of Capri. These are made of wood, just as the Roman Lares often were, and in size and equipment resemble their ancient prototypes. But images of this class are not confined to Capri. The most famous of all these figurines of the child Christ is the Santissimo Bambino of the Church of S. Maria in Aracoeli on the Capitoline Hill in Rome. This image has had a long and interesting history. It is believed that when loaned to some faithful member of the Church and taken to his house it bestows blessings on his family. Placed on the bed of some invalid it is thought to bring relief from suffering and restoration to health. In a word it has been a source of comfort, encouragement, and well-being to afflicted families just as the Lares were in the days of old.”</i><br /><br />So you have essentially the same figurine in this case, which when from being a Roman household “god” to being a figure of the Christ Child. Elsewhere in Italy “it is the Madonna that has succeeded the Lar as the spirit of the household; in still others Saints are found with similar function.” <br /><br />Laing also describes other such phenomena. “Pales”, a “pastoral deity” who was prayed to by worshippers “asking forgiveness for any inadvertent offence and also for the safety, health, and increase of the flocks” – prayers described by Ovid, “survive in the prayers of the peasants of the Roman Campagna today”. “The modern shepherd”, however, “addresses the Madonna instead of Pales”, though he “prays substantially the same things, and like his pagan prototype turns to the east and uses holy water.” <br /><br />Laing has collected dozens of stories like this one that I could recount. “There is a connection between the Lupercalia and Candlemas”. Robigus and his festival of Robigalia was originally, complete with “procession, prayer, and sacrifice” kept mold off the crops. <i>“Of this ancient ceremony we have record of an interesting survival in the Litainia Maior, or Romana, of the Catholic Church on St. Mark’s day, the very day of the Roman Robigalia (April 25). Like the pagan ceremony this included a procession and prayers. The procession, starting from San Lorenzo in Lucina, held a station at San Valentino outside the Walls and another at the Milvan Bridge. Then, instead of proceeding along the Via Claudia as the old Roman procession had done, it turned to the left after stopping at a station of the Holy Cross and went on to St. Peter’s Basilica.</i> In a note, “The ceremony is described in the <i>Liber Pontificalis</i> in the life of Leo III (795-816).<br /><br />I could go on and on. John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26852562299878019362016-07-21T17:28:00.543-04:002016-07-21T17:28:00.543-04:00A few observations -
1) the veneration of saints e...A few observations -<br />1) the veneration of saints existed well before Constantine<br />2) lists of jobs that saints did (ie the saint of tailors, Saint of travellers) is a medieval development- well after the end of paganism<br />3) statues of saints are also a late medieval development <br /><br />To lump all three ideas together is problematic Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01066694173362543732noreply@blogger.com