tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post9056821478644011531..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: How NOT to Argue Pro-ChoiceRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74952565687960331662011-12-10T18:50:02.612-05:002011-12-10T18:50:02.612-05:00Is Yahweh a Moral Monster? deals with some of thi...Is Yahweh a Moral Monster? deals with some of this. http://www.epsociety.org/library/articles.asp?pid=45&mode=detail<br /><br />I have had an extended debate with a militant "agnostic" who was adamant that Leviticus (and by extension the Law) did not forbid father-daughter incest, due to the lack of an explicit proscription, as if forbidding sexual relations btwn any near of kin and specifically with the daughter did not forbid it, (Lv. 18:6,9)while Dt. 22:30 also states that "A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt." <br /><br />But it seemed he was committed to seeing God as morally inferior to himself, and would not be convinced contrary to that.<br /><br />There was also the charge of Divinely sanctioned rape, sex slaves etc. etc, which manifested the same mind, and how the Bible can be distorted when we want to conform it to our carnal mind, which cannot be made subject to God. <br /><br />After other debates I came to the conclusion that he was at war with a God he professed unbelief in, and thus could not allow objective analysis or any conclusion than the one that justified his rejection.PeaceByJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08754948549904895669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47782135104523477502010-04-19T20:32:35.470-04:002010-04-19T20:32:35.470-04:00Rob, I think you're still overlaying your 21st...Rob, I think you're still overlaying your 21st century ideas onto a culture that existed thousands of years ago.<br /><br />It wasn't that 40 year old men were marrying 12 year old girls. It was that 15 year old boys were marrying girls their own age. In ancient Israel the age of majority was 13 (still is among Orthodox Jewish groups).Jonahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13261273762380915910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69046016122834811182010-04-19T20:26:12.437-04:002010-04-19T20:26:12.437-04:00"I'm not sure I understand. Are you sugge..."I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting that morals are defined purely by the winds of popular cultural opinions and taboos?"<br /><br />You're really not suggesting that if *particular applications* of moral laws vary from culture to culture, then that means the *moral laws* vary from culture to culture, with a straight face, are you Rob? Perhaps you can tell us by what magic you transform that non sequitur into a logical inference?Maul P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15227129983621069565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-51459879132446422922010-04-19T20:00:33.440-04:002010-04-19T20:00:33.440-04:00Jonah writes: "We apply the moral aspect to w...Jonah writes: "We apply the moral aspect to whatever social customs exist at the time. In modern American society, the marriageable age is a lot older."<br /><br />I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting that morals are defined purely by the winds of popular cultural opinions and taboos?<br /><br />Think if it this way: if adult men marrying 12-year-old girls somehow became "fashionable" again, would it suddenly become "moral" too?<br /><br />BTW, I'm not suggesting that I have a definitive answer on this.<br /><br />Some cultural taboos develop for good reason, though: a 40-year-old male marrying a 12-year-old girl will almost always involve predatory or coercive behavior.Rob Zechmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05369463377497705313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36200032257945121082010-04-19T17:28:52.519-04:002010-04-19T17:28:52.519-04:00You are correct, the law didn't say "thou...You are correct, the law didn't say "thou shalt not marry until age x". But that doesn't affect the morality of the act. We apply the moral aspect to whatever social customs exist at the time. In modern American society, the marriageable age is a lot older.<br /><br />And we are still talking about marriage, not illicit sexual relations. If a given state passes a law that says you must be of a certain age to marry, we must abide by that law because it does not violate God's law. Conversely, as far as I know "statutory rape" laws don't apply where the couple is married.<br /><br />In ancient Israel, if a man defiled another's daughter, or if he committed an illicit sex act, he would be punished under the law. The pedophile would be committing both crimes.Jonahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13261273762380915910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15576202578115384002010-04-19T17:15:15.972-04:002010-04-19T17:15:15.972-04:00Jonah writes: "Because any sexual activity ou...Jonah writes: "Because any sexual activity outside of marriage is forbidden by the moral law, then if the girl is not of marriageable age ... "<br /><br />What's "marriageable age", according to Scripture? <br /><br />Many girls are physically developed and can conceive by 12 or 13. <br /><br />Beyond that, I see no recognition of a female "age of consent" in Scripture. The practice of fathers giving their 13-year-old daughters in marriage (to men they had no interest in) was probably not that uncommon.Rob Zechmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05369463377497705313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73757485668785510802010-04-19T10:19:47.744-04:002010-04-19T10:19:47.744-04:00I'd start with the laws against incest, that c...I'd start with the laws against incest, that covers a lot of it. There are also the laws related to the rights of the father over his daughter's marriage. Because any sexual activity outside of marriage is forbidden by the moral law, then if the girl is not of marriageable age, it's per se illegal and immoral (and punishable civilly and criminally).<br /><br />One thing I'd like to see us get back to here in the USA is restitution to the parents of child abuse victims (assuming the parents weren't the ones doing the abusing).Jonahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13261273762380915910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47106761427407276842010-04-19T07:32:38.109-04:002010-04-19T07:32:38.109-04:00Ok well now I'm curious...how would you go abo...Ok well now I'm curious...how <i>would</i> you go about making a biblical case against pedophilia?Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00683320115621070088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67251611047787680192010-04-19T01:03:31.414-04:002010-04-19T01:03:31.414-04:00Hey look! Rob's here with his one trick pony ...Hey look! Rob's here with his one trick pony again.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-60549195410029586482010-04-18T17:57:46.069-04:002010-04-18T17:57:46.069-04:00I think you should stop conflating divine judgment...I think you should stop conflating divine judgment with voluntary human action.Jonahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13261273762380915910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39999016958568318002010-04-18T17:17:26.846-04:002010-04-18T17:17:26.846-04:00I think Dusman would agree that the taking of unbo...I think Dusman would agree that the taking of unborn human life wasn't ALWAYS a sin, even if it is now. In fact, the action was even <i>commanded</i> and blessed on several occasions. <br /><br />Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.<br /><br />Perhaps the rules will change again at some point and abortion will once again become a "holy thing". <br /><br />What do you think?Rob Zechmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05369463377497705313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-77463499484717819092010-04-18T14:48:14.348-04:002010-04-18T14:48:14.348-04:00To build further upon what Jason noted, a really g...To build further upon what Jason noted, a really good read is <br /><br />Michael J. Gorman, <i>Abortion & the Early Church:</i> Christian, Jewish, & Pagan Attitudes in the Greco-Roman World, Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock, 1982.Dusmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18050174688923887698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-92078376728971522312010-04-18T13:22:02.382-04:002010-04-18T13:22:02.382-04:00Dusman makes many good points. I would add that th...Dusman makes many good points. I would add that the pro-life interpretation of the Bible didn't originate in modern times. Ancient Jews and Christians drew some of the same conclusions from scripture that pro-life Christians are advocating today. See <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/08/christianitys-history-of-opposition-to.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. The Biblical evidence against abortion is strong by itself, but when the early Jewish and Christian affirmations of a pro-life reading of the Bible are added to the Biblical data itself, the case is even stronger. A pro-choice reading of scripture makes about as much sense as a pro-homosexual reading. There's good reason why neither interpretation was popularized until modern times.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62964081991079934242010-04-18T11:33:44.349-04:002010-04-18T11:33:44.349-04:00Wowee, talk about red herring after red herring, w...Wowee, talk about red herring after red herring, when he starts saying that God is not pro-life! How do people not feel ashamed when they argue so badly?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62756143524123327822010-04-18T10:48:13.986-04:002010-04-18T10:48:13.986-04:00Hi Dusman,
Good job. My guess is that most Chris...Hi Dusman,<br /><br />Good job. My guess is that most Christians would have caved under Jim's ferocious onslaught. Most Christian folks are befuddled (and I don't blame them) and have a deer-in-the-headlights look when confronted by anti-Christian Pro-Choicers who are "making bare-naked assertions, name calling and insult hurling."Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.com