tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post8941762622692419192..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Rom 13: then and nowRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-27606947934189491782008-11-07T15:17:00.000-05:002008-11-07T15:17:00.000-05:00DELIVERED SAID:“Can you provide some examples of w...DELIVERED SAID:<BR/><BR/>“Can you provide some examples of what you believe to be illegitimate governments, and why specifically you believe them to be illegitimate? Thanks again.”<BR/><BR/>If in one way or another they violate the free expression of the creation mandates. If they have laws that infringe on a family life—as God ordained it. If they overtax laborers. If they infringe on the liberty to worship the true God. <BR/><BR/>TITUS SAID:<BR/><BR/>“Many today think that the civil government has no specific duties toward God (I see this in some so-called ‘Two Kingdom’ theologies), but it would seem that Paul thought quite differently.”<BR/><BR/>Yes, the civil magistrate has a duty to punish wrongdoers. That’s a moral category with a religious foundation. So it ultimately goes back to the law of God.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-17492328989181068682008-11-06T23:39:00.000-05:002008-11-06T23:39:00.000-05:00Steve,I know you weren't directing your post t...Steve,<BR/><BR/>I know you weren't directing your post toward anything I wrote, simply commenting on the coincidence & the apparent gap in my thinking about the passage versus the thinking of many others.<BR/><BR/>It is certainly evident that Rom. 13 is fundamentally addressing the Christian's duty toward the civil government, and this is always a necessary corrective. But I have always been fascinated by the appellation which Paul gives to the civil magistrate: "minister of God."<BR/><BR/>Many today think that the civil government has no specific duties toward God (I see this in some so-called "Two Kingdom" theologies), but it would seem that Paul thought quite differently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7818554614629649932008-11-06T22:59:00.000-05:002008-11-06T22:59:00.000-05:00You wrote, "At a minimum, if it protects the free ...You wrote, "At a minimum, if it protects the free expression of the creation mandates (i.e. marriage, labor, dominion, Sabbath [Gen 1-2])."<BR/><BR/>Can you provide some examples of what you believe to be illegitimate governments, and why specifically you believe them to be illegitimate? Thanks again.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69057960694341575492008-11-06T19:05:00.000-05:002008-11-06T19:05:00.000-05:00TITUS SAID:“I actually quoted Rom. 13 on my blog a...TITUS SAID:<BR/><BR/>“I actually quoted Rom. 13 on my blog a couple weeks ago. Speaking for myself, I was mostly thinking of the implications for the civil government's responsibilities toward God than for the Christian's toward the state.”<BR/><BR/>My post wasn’t directed at anything you wrote. Bloggers like Justin Taylor were the oblique target. (Which is not a general criticism of Taylor’s blog. Just in this instance.)<BR/><BR/>DELIVERED SAID:<BR/><BR/>“What qualifies as a ‘legitimate’ government? Thanks.”<BR/><BR/>At a minimum, if it protects the free expression of the creation mandates (i.e. marriage, labor, dominion, Sabbath [Gen 1-2]). <BR/><BR/>The electorate can also agree to extend the natural mandate of gov’t to other things, although that can’t properly contradict the creation mandates.<BR/><BR/>MJTILLEY SAID:<BR/><BR/>“To build on delivered's point ... how did the Roman Empire with its propensity to kill Christians for their Christianity fit that definition?”<BR/><BR/>You’re filtering Rom 13 through the lens of the Neronian persecution and subsequent persecutions. That was not in view at the time Paul penned Romans. Romans was written around AD 57, while the Neronian persecution occurred around AD 64. It’s anachronistic to retroactively apply the Neronian persecution to the scope of Rom 13.<BR/><BR/>Indeed, NT scholars often use the persecutions Nero and Diocletian as a benchmark to date certain NT documents based on their attitude towards the Roman regime.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-21548334575549223442008-11-06T17:07:00.000-05:002008-11-06T17:07:00.000-05:00To build on delivered's point ... how did the Roma...To build on delivered's point ... how did the Roman Empire with its propensity to kill Christians for their Christianity fit that definition?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-83853380450695704272008-11-06T15:44:00.000-05:002008-11-06T15:44:00.000-05:00What qualifies as a "legitimate" government? Than...What qualifies as a "legitimate" government? Thanks.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-76924755166067769952008-11-05T21:39:00.000-05:002008-11-05T21:39:00.000-05:00I actually quoted Rom. 13 on my blog a couple week...I actually quoted Rom. 13 on my blog a couple weeks ago. Speaking for myself, I was mostly thinking of the implications for the civil government's responsibilities toward God than for the Christian's toward the state.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com