tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post8812244018783013094..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Bluffing deathRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5201836350220450422011-01-28T12:47:58.112-05:002011-01-28T12:47:58.112-05:00The Atheist Missionary said: "For example, we...The Atheist Missionary said: <b>"For example, we know the ultraviolet spectrum exists even though we can't perceive it with the naked eye and I am convinced that there are other unknown facets of reality and/or dimensions beyond human comprehension."</b><br /><br />Clearly unknown facets of reality are not ipso factor 'metaphysical'. Assuming there is dimensionality beyond our comprehension, scientific observability insists that it too must be of the same nature as the ones we already know about (3 space, 1 time) so again, not necessarily metaphysical; that is unless you consider time to be metaphysical.<br /><br />Even so, I noticed you ignored the comments about the unscientific nature of your materialistic beliefs about life arising from non-life; do you have scientific evidence of this belief? Scientifically, observability and repeatability prove beyond reasonable doubt that life has only ever arises from life?<br /><br />So your belief in the evolution of first life, is no less pixie dust than our belief that you mock. In fact it is more scientific (and rational) to believe that all life arose from some eternal life, given our observation that only life gives rise to life.<br /><br />You also ignored the other similar comment about common atheist beliefs (origin of reason, order in the universe etc). Most here would be satisfied if you show any of those beliefs to be observable, repeatable or scientific in an atheistic world view (on your own terms, as Steve tends to say).<br /><br />If I could not be more wrong, you're response hasn't shown it.ἐκκλησίαhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011648681141436328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74298730129858925722011-01-27T10:23:44.666-05:002011-01-27T10:23:44.666-05:00Likewise, has he ever seen other minds? Has he see...Likewise, has he ever seen other minds? Has he seen the past? Has he seen the future?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6232432831930081322011-01-27T00:40:29.714-05:002011-01-27T00:40:29.714-05:00Brian Westley said:
"As an atheist who hasn&#...Brian Westley said:<br />"As an atheist who hasn't seen any of the above happen..."<br /><br />Have you ever seen your brain?Craig Sowderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624212251233585028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-3972764515799287152011-01-26T22:23:55.421-05:002011-01-26T22:23:55.421-05:00Just for the record, the meaning of the greek &quo...Just for the record, the meaning of the greek "atheos" is indeed "without God", but doesn't have quite the meaning that TAM claims. It's meaning is not "without belief in God" but literally "without God". Where the word is used in the Bible, it is a picture of someone who has been abandoned by God; it is someone who doesn't know God, and actively denies God or the gods. It is not simply a lack of belief in God. It is a positive denial.Nealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15030792638120558640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45904489467848589902011-01-26T20:50:34.617-05:002011-01-26T20:50:34.617-05:00Thnuh Thnuh,
Thanks for illustrating what I said ...Thnuh Thnuh,<br /><br />Thanks for illustrating what I said about the behavior of many of the non-Christians who post here.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36088010069905157232011-01-26T20:47:10.260-05:002011-01-26T20:47:10.260-05:00Brian Westley wrote:
"As an atheist who hasn...Brian Westley wrote:<br /><br /><b><i>"As an atheist who hasn't seen any of the above happen, or anything else that suggests that gods exist, be sure and wake me when these things start happening."</i></b> <br /><br />We have a large amount of documentation of paranormal phenomena in modern times and good evidence for events in ancient times that would commonly be considered miraculous. If you're asleep to all of that evidence, then that's your problem.<br /><br />If by "see" you're referring to what you've witnessed with your own eyes, ears, etc., then should we conclude that you reject the vast majority of what scientists claim about their disciplines? You didn't watch the scientific experiments yourself or personally verify that all of their equipment was working properly before they took each measurement. You're trusting what other people have told you. Often, you're many steps removed from the original witnesses. <br /><br />You write:<br /><br /><b><i>"Until then, I'll continue to be skeptical that iron-age mystics, who were necessarily ignorant of modern physics, astronomy, medicine, etc, somehow managed to get metaphysics right, even though their explanations were similar to so many other god-centered stories of primitive humans."</i></b> <br /><br />Of course, atheists and other critics of Christianity don't just reject the claims of ancient Christian sources on matters that would require a knowledge of something like physics or medicine. For example, an ancient Christian wouldn't have to know much about astronomy in order to credibly report that Jesus' tomb was empty. Saying that the apostle John didn't know much about chemistry doesn't give us reason to distrust what he reported about the empty tomb. And saying that the ancient enemies of Christianity who corroborated the empty tomb were ignorant of the latest antibiotics doesn't give us much reason to doubt their testimony.<br /><br />We today are ignorant of scientific discoveries that will be made a century from now. Does it follow that nobody at that future date should trust our history books or court verdicts? If a man testifies to a murder he witnessed in a court of law, should the jury reject his testimony if they discover that he's illiterate, carries a good luck charm in his pocket, or believes in horoscopes?Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26101461566053790602011-01-26T20:43:04.997-05:002011-01-26T20:43:04.997-05:00Why doesn't your lord make an appearance on CN...<i>Why doesn't your lord make an appearance on CNN?</i><br /><br />TAM, there is an "official" Christian reply that hasn't been alluded to (except indirectly by Steve in his last comment), I suspect because it's so weak. It's at the end of Luke 16. Supposedly if reading the Pentateuch and the prophets doesn't convince you, nothing will. Therefore CNN would be a waste of time. Do you buy that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-16477997311477663872011-01-26T20:35:24.847-05:002011-01-26T20:35:24.847-05:00A doctor came in, and asked if she would like to s...<i>A doctor came in, and asked if she would like to see a priest before she went on to the great void. She gave him the finger, laughed, laid down, and passed away within the hour. Amazing last memory for me to have of her.</i><br /><br />I can't tell you how sad this makes me feel. It's a tragedy, really. This pathetic display of defiance is nothing to be admired; it won't stand up to His scrutiny.Coryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11889559954131957746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-63189707008338126732011-01-26T20:33:17.746-05:002011-01-26T20:33:17.746-05:00Of course, hardcore infidels regard any naturalist...Of course, hardcore infidels regard any naturalistic explanation, however unlikely, as more likely than a supernatural explanation. So even if God did appear on CNN (whatever that's supposed to mean), they'd conjecture a flurry of naturalistic alternatives.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-27113685111216568682011-01-26T20:24:22.068-05:002011-01-26T20:24:22.068-05:00(continued from above)
We also have to consider h...(continued from above)<br /><br />We also have to consider how atheists and other critics of Christianity have already responded to large amounts of evidence. The fact that some people are willing to propose something like a multiverse or group hallucinations to dismiss an argument for God's existence or Jesus' resurrection, for example, doesn't prove that there isn't a lot of evidence for the Christian conclusions. Holocaust deniers don't prove that there isn't much evidence for the Holocaust.<br /><br />Even if a Christian argument only produced, say, a 55% probability, that low probability would still be better than the alternatives. Asking for more evidence doesn't explain the evidence you have. Asking why God wasn't on CNN last night isn't much of a response to a Christian argument for prophecy fulfillment or Jesus' resurrection.<br /><br />Given that we're addressing an agent like God, not just a human, how much can we claim to know about the level of evidence that's needed? God would have direct access to the heart and means of changing individuals beyond the means available to humans. It's not as though God is dependent on something like philosophical or historical argumentation. I don't think the arguments for Christianity produce a conclusion that has merely a low probability, but even if I did, I could also believe that God convicts the hearts of individuals apart from such argumentation. I could also believe that God isn't under any obligation to present evidence to people who He knows would respond wrongly to it if they had the opportunity. God has rights, knowledge, and means that a human wouldn't have. We shouldn't think of how God should approach the world as if He had human limitations.<br /><br />Last year, I wrote an article about how non-Christians who post here often ignore what we write about the evidence for Christianity. See <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/11/no-evidence.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. You and other opponents of Christianity who post on this blog would be more credible in your requests for additional evidence if you made more of an effort to interact with the evidence you already have.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23438049346800476942011-01-26T20:24:05.697-05:002011-01-26T20:24:05.697-05:00The Atheist Missionary wrote:
"For example, ...The Atheist Missionary wrote:<br /><br /><b><i>"For example, we know the ultraviolet spectrum exists even though we can't perceive it with the naked eye and I am convinced that there are other unknown facets of reality and/or dimensions beyond human comprehension. Atheists don't propose to provide answers for these unknowns - they are content to say 'we don't know - let's see if we can find the answers'. Theists are the ones who propose to have the answers....Why doesn't your lord make an appearance on CNN?"</i></b> <br /><br />Atheists and theists both claim to have answers for some things and not have answers for others. Whether they're correct in either context has to be argued according to the details of each case. Vague generalizations, like you've given us above, don't accomplish much.<br /><br />Regarding why God doesn't do something like make a CNN appearance, I briefly addressed the issue in <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2006/07/evidence-of-prophecy.html" rel="nofollow">a post on Biblical prophecy a few years ago</a>. Why think that something less than appearing on CNN is insufficient?<br /><br />God, like humans, can do something sufficient to accomplish His ends rather than doing something more than sufficient. Or he can do something that's more than sufficient to a lesser degree rather than a greater degree. We frequently provide people with less, even far less, evidence than we could to support our claims. If a husband gets home from work late one night, and his wife asks him why he's late, let's say that he explains that he stopped at the bank on the way home. He could produce a bank receipt and footage from the bank's security cameras, but most people would settle for some lesser form of evidence, like the husband's general trustworthiness. It makes sense to produce less evidence in some contexts. Producing less evidence saves time and is beneficial in other ways. God is unlike us, however, in that He knows what evidence would be needed in each case, He determines where to place each person in life, etc. (Acts 17:26-27)<br /><br />One advantage to producing less evidence than what you're asking for is that it can better demonstrate the character of individuals who respond to the evidence they have in different ways. A world with suffering, a God who isn't doing things like making CNN appearances, etc. develops and demonstrates the character of individuals in ways that another type of world wouldn't.<br /><br />(continued below)Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-42218885495832672742011-01-26T20:13:45.222-05:002011-01-26T20:13:45.222-05:00BRIAN WESTLEY SAID:
"As an atheist who hasn&...BRIAN WESTLEY SAID:<br /><br />"As an atheist who hasn't seen any of the above happen, or anything else that suggests that gods exist..."<br /><br />I don't believe in "gods" either. Having eliminating polytheism, that leaves monotheism. Thanks for narrowing the search parameters.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10738652839350709642011-01-26T20:08:29.603-05:002011-01-26T20:08:29.603-05:00Too bad Nietzsche doesn't come out of Hell and...<i>Too bad Nietzsche doesn't come out of Hell and tell everyone to reject his atheism.<br /><br />If Nietzsche did that, he'd be a great evangelist for Christianity</i><br /><br />Yep.<br /><br />Or if Jesus came back.<br /><br />Or if Thor appeared (substitute Norse mythology for Christianity in that case, of course).<br /><br />As an atheist who hasn't seen any of the above happen, or anything else that suggests that gods exist, be sure and wake me when these things start happening. Until then, I'll continue to be skeptical that iron-age mystics, who were necessarily ignorant of modern physics, astronomy, medicine, etc, somehow managed to get metaphysics right, even though their explanations were similar to so many other god-centered stories of primitive humans.Brian Westleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14191964121225569563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-83392305085944191242011-01-26T19:18:12.489-05:002011-01-26T19:18:12.489-05:00Ah, the neurotic atheist. He's anal-retentivel...Ah, the neurotic atheist. He's anal-retentively afraid to "believe," so he has conjure up a "non-belief."Mike Westfallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06944727980772754938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-75425105785289064232011-01-26T19:12:27.088-05:002011-01-26T19:12:27.088-05:00"Then again most of the New Atheists have lit...<i>"Then again most of the New Atheists have little knowledge of Nietzsche which makes their arguments somewhat lacking in force and explanatory impact."</i><br /><br />Too bad Nietzsche doesn't come out of Hell and tell everyone to reject his atheism.<br /><br />If Nietzsche did that, he'd be a great evangelist for Christianity.<br /><br />Nietzsche: "Hey everyone, please listen closely to what I have to say: There is an almighty God and there is eternal Hell with eternal suffering. I know. Because I'm in Hell. I'm warning everyone with pain and tears to not do what I did. There is a God. You're all sinners. And God provided a way of redemption through the Blood Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Repent! And trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. <br /><br />Don't ever do what I did or you'll end up in miserable Hell like I did. Which is for eternity.<br /><br />Please! I'm warning you! Repent and believe Jesus and in Jesus."<br /><br />Wouldn't it be cool if Nietzsche said this on CNN?<br /><br />;-)Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-20837761648097680722011-01-26T19:03:22.799-05:002011-01-26T19:03:22.799-05:00Then again most of the New Atheists have little kn...Then again most of the New Atheists have little knowledge of Nietzsche which makes their arguments somewhat lacking in force and explanatory impact.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-53545469939392603212011-01-26T18:59:08.001-05:002011-01-26T18:59:08.001-05:00The following was said:
“My criticism relates to ...The following was said:<br /><br />“My criticism relates to the constant blather about "if atheism is true". Atheism is not a belief system or world view. Atheism is simply the non-belief in god(s) - nothing more.”<br /><br />In part, I have Nietzsche to thank for the following reply.<br /><br />The comment that Atheism is not a belief system would I think be met with nothing but scorn from Nietzsche.<br /><br />He very much viewed his mission is developing a new belief system that would lead to a new education and rebirth of society.<br /><br />You do not fight with the passion that Nietzsche fought if it were not about beliefs and the need to adopt a new belief system.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-12851642432245719832011-01-26T18:56:55.675-05:002011-01-26T18:56:55.675-05:00"Bluffing death"
Atheism is an intellec..."Bluffing death"<br /><br />Atheism is an intellectual bluff.<br /><br />Atheism is not only intellectually bankrupt, but as Steve's post shows atheism is emotionally unsatisfying and cruel as well.<br /><br />Atheism is both stupid and cruel. You gotta be an idiot to embrace that.<br /><br />In delightful contrast Christianity is intellectual, smart, true, and kind.<br /><br />Christianity is so much more satisfying intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, and psychologically than atheism that it's sad that anyone ever falls for the lie of atheism.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-43094161734085493332011-01-26T18:48:42.732-05:002011-01-26T18:48:42.732-05:00For one thing, he's a Republican. So he'd ...For one thing, he's a Republican. So he'd only appear on Fox.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-4987705811852096722011-01-26T18:43:20.910-05:002011-01-26T18:43:20.910-05:00steve, polemics aside. Why doesn't your lord ...steve, polemics aside. Why doesn't your lord make an appearance on CNN?The Atheist Missionaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07191035196328725888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-35156074415176126392011-01-26T18:42:07.027-05:002011-01-26T18:42:07.027-05:00ἐκκλησία, I'm sorry but you could not be more ...ἐκκλησία, I'm sorry but you could not be more wrong. An atheist does not need to deny metaphysics or any of the other matters you describe in your comment. For example, we know the ultraviolet spectrum exists even though we can't perceive it with the naked eye and I am convinced that there are other unknown facets of reality and/or dimensions beyond human comprehension. Atheists don't propose to provide answers for these unknowns - they are content to say "we don't know - let's see if we can find the answers". Theists are the ones who propose to have the answers.The Atheist Missionaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07191035196328725888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-77330189127308720202011-01-26T18:40:55.556-05:002011-01-26T18:40:55.556-05:00The Atheist Missionary said...
"We just don&...The Atheist Missionary said...<br /><br />"We just don't waste our time believing in a sky daddy who supposedly actively intervenes in human affirs in the absence of sufficient proof. If Hey-Zeus wishes to make an appearance tonight on CNN, rest assured that I will tune in."<br /><br />That polemical caricature evinces your intellectual frivolity.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-88640220510356522922011-01-26T18:38:50.141-05:002011-01-26T18:38:50.141-05:00THE ATHEIST MISSIONARY SAID:
"Atheism is not...THE ATHEIST MISSIONARY SAID:<br /><br />"Atheism is not a belief system or world view. Atheism is simply the non-belief in god(s) - nothing more."<br /><br />That's just a linguistic gimmick. Expressing a positive thesis in negative terms.<br /><br />In Christian theism, God is the source of all modalities (i.e. possibilities, actualities, necessities).<br /><br />By denying the existence of God (both Christian theism and lesser theisms), atheism is committed to a systematic alternative explanation which attributes all modalities to a naturalistic source or sources.<br /><br />In other words, "atheism" is just a negative synonym for "metaphysical naturalism."stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62971515428927905602011-01-26T18:35:19.330-05:002011-01-26T18:35:19.330-05:00why waste time trying to convince others of the va...<i>why waste time trying to convince others of the validity of this non-belief?</i> Well, two responses to that: 1. I find counter-apologetics intellectually stimulating; and 2. I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. My web pseudonym is a sarcastic jab at religious fundamentalists who proselytize their beliefs. I support freedom of religion and freedom from religion. You guys can believe whatever you want but I want the buck stopped when those beliefs affect public policy (such as Christian cover pages on White House intelligence briefings: <a href="http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/05/17/christian-cover-pages-for-president-bushs-intelligence-briefings/" rel="nofollow">http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/05/17/christian-cover-pages-for-president-bushs-intelligence-briefings/</a>)<br /><br />Just so we are clear on our definitions: "<i>Atheist (n.) comes from the Greek root atheos, i.e. without theos, which literally translates to ‘without God’. Atheism, then, is simply the absence of theism. It makes no sense to disbelieve in what isn’t even there. Just like not stamp collecting isn’t a hobby, it makes no sense to point out that non-stamp collectors disbelieve in the non-hobby of not collecting stamps. The British philosopher A.C. Grayling makes a similar comparison regarding atheists in his informative book Ideas that Matter. The term atheist (without theos) designates someone who “lacks a belief in God,” and concordantly is correct for describing someone who “lacks faith” as well.</i>" Tristan Vick, Advocatus Atheist blogger.The Atheist Missionaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07191035196328725888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7412302797695902642011-01-26T18:26:25.747-05:002011-01-26T18:26:25.747-05:00The Atheist Missionary said: "Atheism is not ...The Atheist Missionary said: <b>"Atheism is not a belief system or world view."</b><br /><br />It most certainly is. It posits a certain type of reality, one which can be tested and analyzed logically.<br /><br />It may be true that the atheist isn't obligated to <b>prove</b> the non-existence of God, but it is true that the atheist is obligated to defend their world view and its consequences.<br /><br />This includes a defense of the denial of metaphysics, given our intuition; a defense of our sense of morality, given our experience; a defense of illogical, backwards, unscientific (and unobservable or unrepeatable) positions, such as from nothing comes something, from the irrational comes reason, from non-life arises life, and out of chaos arises order.<br /><br />Because atheism posits a certain type of reality it is a <b>world view</b>. Because this world view doesn't sync with the experience of most of the believing world, atheism is obligated to provide defenses when challenged. <br /><br />Steve provides many challenges.ἐκκλησίαhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011648681141436328noreply@blogger.com