tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post8698762320460786418..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Ancient logistics IIRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-77051293560047406202010-09-23T23:05:26.461-04:002010-09-23T23:05:26.461-04:00Edward T. Babinski said...
"What did Christi...Edward T. Babinski said...<br /><br />"What did Christians discuss most back then? Around the time of the Council of Nicea and for centuries afterwords, Christians debated theological issues, like Arianism vs. Athanasianism, and nuances concerning 'the Trinity.'... Donatism was of course a major controversy by Augustine's day, namely, whether or not bishops should be consecrated who had disavowed the faith under Roman persecution."<br /><br />Utterly irrelevant to the topic of the post. Desist from leaving irrelevant, off-topic comments.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-33204041174740249172010-09-23T23:02:22.759-04:002010-09-23T23:02:22.759-04:00EDWARD T. BABINSKI SAID:
"Steve, Ancient Log...EDWARD T. BABINSKI SAID:<br /><br />"Steve, Ancient Logistics? 'How ancient' are we talking about? Augustine wasn't around in 600 BCE when the biblical Flood story probably attained its present form, nor was he around when even older ANE Flood stories were written. (Same goes for your first 'Ancient Logistics' post in which you cited Augustine musing on the existence of 'waters above the firmament.')"<br /><br />Irrelevant. The salient distinction is not between one prescientific writer and another prescientific writer, but between scientific writers and prescientific writers.<br /><br />The question at issue is whether prescientific writers entertained common sense, logistical objections to cosmographical models.<br /><br />If they did, which is demonstrably the case, then you can't claim that Gen 1 is false because people in his day and age didn't think through the real world implications of a cosmographic model.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-83827692803233252422010-09-23T21:03:15.470-04:002010-09-23T21:03:15.470-04:00Steve, Ancient Logistics? "How ancient" ...Steve, Ancient Logistics? "How ancient" are we talking about? <br /><br />Augustine wasn't around in 600 BCE when the biblical Flood story probably attained its present form, nor was he around when even older ANE Flood stories were written. (Same goes for your first "Ancient Logistics" post in which you cited Augustine musing on the existence of "waters above the firmament.")<br /><br />What I find interesting about Augustine is that he did seek to defend the Bible's primacy in matters both cosmological and historical. For instance Augustine spoke of the firmament being firm (yet turning, perhaps like an upside down bowl); and he denounced the idea that the lengthy lists of ancient Egyptian kings implied a genuine time line going back further than the Flood or further than the creation of the Bible's Adam and Eve. <br /><br />So Augustine was not a modern in respect to either cosmology or history, but a "defender of the Bible" . . . and a defender of damnation for unbaptized infants, and of celibacy, and the necessity of Christian rulers to persecute heretics.Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-75908879112040803212010-09-22T08:13:58.601-04:002010-09-22T08:13:58.601-04:00This is one of the things that Jason just alluded ...This is one of the things that Jason just alluded to:<br /><br />"After this he continues as follows: 'They speak, in the next place, of a deluge, and of a monstrous ark, having within it all things, and of a dove and a crow as messengers, falsifying and recklessly altering the story of Deucalion; not expecting, I suppose, that these things would come to light, but imagining that they were inventing stories merely for young children.'<br /><br /> Now in these remarks observe the hostility— so unbecoming a philosopher— displayed by this man towards this very ancient Jewish narrative. For, not being able to say anything against the history of the deluge, and not perceiving what he might have urged against the ark and its dimensions—viz., that, according to the general opinion, which accepted the statements that it was three hundred cubits in length, and fifty in breadth, and thirty in height, it was impossible to maintain that it contained (all) the animals that were upon the earth, fourteen specimens of every clean and four of every unclean beast."<br /><br />http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04164.htmstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-31398099356695639002010-09-22T05:52:03.855-04:002010-09-22T05:52:03.855-04:00Dave Armstrong's going to zing you for quoting...Dave Armstrong's going to zing you for quoting from a Catholic website, you know... Prots both (a) hate Catholics and are phobic about quoting from the Church Fathers, and (b) are dependent on Catholicism and the Church Fathers to do their intellectual heavy lifting. Apparently.Tom Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246157794276270490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-34595075155108264682010-09-22T05:20:18.551-04:002010-09-22T05:20:18.551-04:00When Celsus wrote against Christianity in the seco...When Celsus wrote against Christianity in the second century, and Origen replied in the third, there was already widespread discussion of the historicity of the Bible and of pagan accounts. For example, Origen refers to how a disciple of Marcion, Apelles, dismissed the Old Testament as legendary (Against Celsus, 5:54). Origen refers to logistical questions that had been raised about Noah's ark, the idea that the Pentateuch was written by a group of people rather than by Moses, and disagreements about how literally to take pagan accounts (Against Celsus, 4:41-42). Such issues were commonly considered and discussed among ancient Christians, Jews, and pagans, even well before Augustine's time.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.com