tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post8456406899283275955..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Wesley's junkyard dogRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger1125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23050429897174071402008-03-14T17:07:00.000-04:002008-03-14T17:07:00.000-04:00“No, it's a simple expression that God did not des...<I>“No, it's a simple expression that God did not desire or decree such an action, as I've stated before.”</I><BR/><BR/>What is it with this constant Arminian predilection with the word "decree?"<BR/><BR/>1. If something happens, it must be desired *in some sense* by God, or else it would not occur, and that *must* include evil, or else this makes mince meat of Scripture, viz. Acts 2:23, Isa. 10, Jude 4, the list could go on and on.<BR/><BR/>This would only be controversial for an Open Theist.<BR/><BR/>2. Arminians like JCT need to go back and read *their own theologians.* The term "decree" isn't unique to Calvinism. <BR/><BR/>a. Molinist Arminians agree that God decrees all things. At issue with them is the way in which the world is decreed and the grounding of God's knowledge.<BR/><BR/>b. Classical Arminianism has it's own order of decrees, the first two of which are identical with Infralapsarianism and Amyraldianism. The difference there is over the term "permission." In Calvinism it is effacious; in Arminianism it is ineffacious, typically expressed as a decree to permit the possibility of evil/sin.<BR/><BR/>Remember, JCT is the one who issued public challenges. He should have read up on his own theology first. It appears we understand it better than he does. <BR/><BR/>Likewise, it's apparent he's not familiar with his own commentators. When we can quote Arminians agreeing with us over him, that should, one would think, send a strong message to him. Apparently, he's so committed to will worship it doesn't.<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>“God's drawing Israel with His love is not mutually exclusive with His bringing them out of Egypt by His power or afflicting the Egyptians.”</I><BR/><BR/>Pardon? The typical Arminian analogy for "wooing" is that of a suitor for a prospective spouse. He "woos" her with dates,flowers, promises, etc. He does not physically pick her up and carry her to the altar and marry her. He does not go get her and drag her through the wilderness and out of bondage. <BR/><BR/>God did not "woo" Israel through invitations and promises, when she was in Egypt. He did not send all those plagues and then just leave it up to Israel to leave. He sent plagues *on Egypt* and he efficaciously moved Pharaoh through a process of hardening his heart until He sent the Angel of Death - and *that* motivated Pharaoh at last. His father had murdered little Hebrew boys, so in the end God judges Egypt with the same thing - the deaths of their own firstborn children. You'd have to a supreme biblical illiterate not to see that.<BR/><BR/>And what does this say about LFW? Why did the Egyptians release the Hebrew slaves? Answer: Because their children had all died. They realized that the people were a curse upon them.<BR/><BR/>Now, what does LFW teach exactly? In LFW, our motives and desires cannot be attributed as sufficient causes behind our choices/decisions. That, JCT, is right out of the standard construal of LFW. Go look it up.<BR/><BR/> 29Now it came about at midnight that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle.<BR/><BR/> 30Pharaoh arose in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians, and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was no home where there was not someone dead.<BR/><BR/> 31Then he called for Moses and Aaron at night and said, "Rise up, get out from among my people, both you and the sons of Israel; and go, worship the LORD, as you have said.<BR/><BR/> 32"Take both your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and go, and bless me also."<BR/>Exodus of Israel<BR/> 33The Egyptians urged the people, to send them out of the land in haste, for they said, "We will all be dead."<BR/><BR/> 34So the people took their dough before it was leavened, with their kneading bowls bound up in the clothes on their shoulders.<BR/><BR/> 35Now the sons of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, for they had requested from the Egyptians articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing;<BR/><BR/> 36and the LORD had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have their request. Thus they plundered the Egyptians. <BR/><BR/>1. The Egyptians are clearly sufficiently motivated by their desires, namely sorrow and fear generated by the curse on the firstborn.<BR/><BR/>2. God is said to have made them favorably disposed to the people. <BR/><BR/>This isn't LFW, not a single line of it supports LFW.<BR/><BR/><BR/> 31 During the night Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron and said, "Up! Leave my people, you and the Israelites! Go, worship the LORD as you have requested. 32 Take your flocks and herds, as you have said, and go. And also bless me."<BR/><BR/> 33 The Egyptians urged the people to hurry and leave the country. "For otherwise," they said, "we will all die!" 34 So the people took their dough before the yeast was added, and carried it on their shoulders in kneading troughs wrapped in clothing. 35 The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. 36 The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.com