tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post8266248735485240597..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Is God the source of sin?Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-12790762868702525992008-09-06T09:14:00.000-04:002008-09-06T09:14:00.000-04:00_E_ELES_AI SAID:“I'm not sure I understand what yo..._E_ELES_AI SAID:<BR/><BR/>“I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Can something be logically sinful but psychologically not sinful? Is it sinful or not sinful?”<BR/><BR/>To revert to my example, a desirable woman is a natural good, not an evil. For a man to see a good as a good, to see it for what it is, is not intrinsically evil. He finds desirable what God has made desirable. <BR/><BR/>But what if he’s married to another woman? <BR/><BR/>*Truths* entail other *truths*, but *feelings* don’t entail other *feelings*. For example, suppose I desire honey? Some people die from beestings every year (due to anaphylactic shock).<BR/><BR/>The *truth* that I desire honey ultimately entails the *truth* that some people will be stung to death by honeybees. Does this mean my *desire* for honey entails my *desire* that some people die from beestings? No. Honey is the object of my desire, not their death by beestings—even though honey presupposes bees, and the coexistence of bees and humans makes it inevitable that some humans will be stung to death by honeybees.<BR/><BR/>Would it be sinful of me to desire someone’s death by beestings? Generally speaking, yes (unless the victim deserved to die). Is it therefore sinful of me to desire honey? No—even though they’re logically interrelated.<BR/><BR/>It is, of course, possible to entertain sinful sexual desires. If, say, I’m a married man and I fantasize about seducing another woman, then I’m transferring my affections to that woman, and making invidious comparisons between that woman and my own wife.<BR/><BR/>But I’m making a different point.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-83067743987191491512008-09-06T00:36:00.000-04:002008-09-06T00:36:00.000-04:00And that such a physical attraction (not a sin) co...And that such a physical attraction (not a sin) could lead to an act of sin, even in a human who has no sinful desires springing from a sin nature.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69225739002689653702008-09-06T00:25:00.000-04:002008-09-06T00:25:00.000-04:00"I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Ca..."I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Can something be logically sinful but psychologically not sinful? Is it sinful or not sinful?"<BR/><BR/>I believe that his point was that *feeling* sexual attraction to someone is not itself a sin.Saint and Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14166699860672840738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8641333683715180972008-09-05T21:32:00.000-04:002008-09-05T21:32:00.000-04:00Johnmark,Yes, that is what that means on that view...Johnmark,<BR/><BR/>Yes, that is what that means on that view. Well, they put it this way, "It needs no cause <I>per se</I>".Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36785852990786312482008-09-05T21:25:00.000-04:002008-09-05T21:25:00.000-04:00Steve said, "Logically speaking, if you desire som...Steve said, "Logically speaking, if you desire something that God forbids, then you wish to break God’s law, which is evil. Your desire is logically illicit. ¶ But psychologically speaking, the husband doesn’t wish to break God’s law. Breaking God’s law is not the object of his desire. The object of his desire is the woman."<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Can something be logically sinful but psychologically not sinful? Is it sinful or not sinful?varietyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04197587758094541983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-82029536123542496562008-09-05T20:27:00.000-04:002008-09-05T20:27:00.000-04:00Paul,I did think about that angle. So wouldn't th...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I did think about that angle. So wouldn't that mean the evil is uncaused? <BR/><BR/>MarkMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-48693927947517479362008-09-05T19:36:00.000-04:002008-09-05T19:36:00.000-04:00I'm not Steve, but my own two cents is that most o...I'm not Steve, but my own two cents is that most of them would say that evil is not a "thing" that would need a "cause" to come into "existence." I don't agree, but that's how I'd argue it, FWIW.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90118808731615928982008-09-05T19:23:00.000-04:002008-09-05T19:23:00.000-04:00Steve, Thanks for this response.This post got me t...Steve, <BR/><BR/>Thanks for this response.<BR/><BR/>This post got me thinking of something else. How does the evidentialist using the cosmological argument account for the first cause of evil? <BR/><BR/>MarkMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19590626988068808732008-09-05T15:41:00.000-04:002008-09-05T15:41:00.000-04:00James,If I may answer for Steve: "No."Glorified ma...James,<BR/><BR/>If I may answer for Steve: "No."<BR/><BR/>Glorified man is unable to sin. <BR/><BR/><BR/>"The Dude,"<BR/><BR/>Your question assumes that if one doesn't violate God's law in his <I>motive</I> he doesn't violate God's law in <I>other</I> areas. Motive or intent is only one factor. Goal and standard also come into play in a full blown analysis.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6247199253771823772008-09-05T15:30:00.000-04:002008-09-05T15:30:00.000-04:00"It’s the woman he finds attractive or unattractiv..."It’s the woman he finds attractive or unattractive, not the prohibition. He desires the woman. He has no desire to violate God’s law in the process. That is not his motive."<BR/><BR/>How does this perspective account for sins of unbelievers? Do ignorant people still not sin?The Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00211478133160497647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-42476241557348636372008-09-05T14:59:00.000-04:002008-09-05T14:59:00.000-04:00"Since we have the choice to not sin"In your estim..."Since we have the choice to not sin"<BR/><BR/>In your estimation, will Heavenly man (in his full, glorified state) have the capacity to choose evil? <BR/><BR/>Will anyone be able to "fall" ever again, or was that capacity only granted to Satan and Adam?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387448864812957107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-72089956966645521212008-09-05T12:56:00.000-04:002008-09-05T12:56:00.000-04:00Good post. I think people need to define their ter...Good post. <BR/><BR/>I think people need to define their terms more often as well. My dialogue with a non-believer about the existence of evil disproving the existence of a loving God was flawed. They took one side of the story "that God allowed for us to choose between good and evil" and left out the part "we chose evil over God."<BR/><BR/>God is the source of good. If one wants to say "sin" essentially was God's fault, is unfair. Since we have the choice to not sin, there is fault in us as well. Sins existence is the result of Adam not obeying the covenant between him and God.Innovative Defensehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07854444943308333927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22992369864638374602008-09-05T12:55:00.000-04:002008-09-05T12:55:00.000-04:00Thanks Steve for sharing your keen intellect with ...Thanks Steve for sharing your keen intellect with us lesser lights.<BR/><BR/>I saw the same thread over at Parchment and Pen. I didn't know what to make of Copan taking Sproul Jr. to the woodshed, so I let it alone.<BR/><BR/>Your statement here cleared up the whole morass for me: "My point is that we need to distinguish an evil desire, which involves a desire to commit evil, from desiring a forbidden good."<BR/><BR/>Thanks Steve.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.com