tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post8133358181187912784..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: The cards that are dealt youRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-48312905535402429152015-07-28T23:22:13.325-04:002015-07-28T23:22:13.325-04:00i) In my response to the commenter at Justin's...i) In my response to the commenter at Justin's blog, I didn't say it was good "by definition."<br /><br />ii) I've engaged moralistic objections to predestination ad nauseam. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10358260893739804972015-07-28T15:43:25.035-04:002015-07-28T15:43:25.035-04:00This is to Steve or any other Calvinists out there...This is to Steve or any other Calvinists out there who would like to help me out.<br /><br />I'm going to have to read those papers by John Martin Fischer because there are still some objections I have difficulty answering. For example, I still have difficulty explaining the justness of vicarious condemnation. Non-Christians charge me with irrationality and credulity for believing it's just merely because God says so and despite the fact that I can't explain how it can be so.<br /><br />Steve, you wrote:<br /><br /><i>i) That’s vitiated by a crucial disanalogy between puppets and predestined human agents. Puppets are mindless. And they have no power of action.<br /> By contrast, predestined human beings are conscious, self-aware agents who can deliberate, and act on their intentions.</i><br /><br />That's the same type of answer I give to non-Christians. But their response is that God's actions are worse than the puppeteer since with the puppeteer only an impersonal object is "punished," whereas God predestines the punishment of persons who will experience such punishment for all eternity. The fact that human beings are "conscious, self-aware agents" allegedly makes God's reprobating decisions and punishing actions worse not better.<br /><br />The non-Christians impugn the goodness of God for doing such a thing. And impugn the goodness of Calvinists for accepting such doctrines despite their (my) inability to give a sufficient answer to that objection.<br /><br /><i>ii) People are often easy to manipulate because they are predictable. They have certain character traits. Likes and dislikes. As such, if you know enough about them, you can push their buttons.</i><br /><br />I've said similar things to non-Christians and their response is that it makes God that much more of a moral monster precisely because God manipulates people to their self-destruction. My appeal to Prov. 16:4 is enrages them even more.<br /><br /><i>ii) Justice is good in its own right. It’s not merely a means to an end, but a value in itself.</i><br /><br />When I say the same thing to non-Christians they respond by saying that I'm begging the question by calling God's decisions/actions good and just by definition. When (according to them) I have no external criteria by which to judge whether God actually is or isn't just/good. I'm content with appealing to Divine Voluntarism, but since most Calvinists reject it, I go with <a href="http://misclane.blogspot.com/2014/05/god-in-relation-to-law-ex-lex-sub-lego.html" rel="nofollow">my version of Divine Command Essentialism</a> which I've gotten from W.L. Craig and adjusted/modified it because we disagree on Calvinism. <br /><br />At my blogpost <a href="http://misclane.blogspot.com/2014/09/why-obey-god-rough-draft.html" rel="nofollow">Why Obey God?</a> I give various reasons why we ought to obey God. Then give some objections non-Christians given and my responses to them. Then ultimately I quote William Lane Craig who summaries the classic historical reason.<br /><br />You believe in God because God, as the supreme Good, is the appropriate object of adoration and love. He is Goodness itself, to be desired for its own sake. And so the fulfillment of human existence is to be found in relation to God. It's because of who God is and his moral worth that he is worthy of worship. It has nothing to do with avoiding Hell, or promoting your own well-being."<br /><br />I agree with Craig, however as a Calvinist it's more difficult for me to argue for God's goodness in light of reprobation and objections offered to it.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.com