tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post803184220348897610..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: William Lane Craig on freewillRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-87657658477490619862009-06-24T08:25:48.614-04:002009-06-24T08:25:48.614-04:00Andrew,
No I haven't since the issue hasn...Andrew, <br /><br />No I haven't since the issue hasn't arisen lately. However, I may do a post on the foreknowledge/freewill debate where this issue is touched. I did ask the question a few days ago that if man causes or determines God's beliefs, does this make God into a puppet?Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8092959754384239212009-06-24T08:23:44.910-04:002009-06-24T08:23:44.910-04:00Rob, that seems a bit of a cheap shot, unless you&...Rob, that seems a bit of a cheap shot, unless you're not reading charitably. It seems people are wondering how Craig can still hold to LFW given Molinism. This question is raised by many philosophers and theologians, mostly from fellow LFWers themselves. I find it hard to believe that all these thinkers are "stumped by Craig." Rather, they're "stumped" that Craig thinks he can squeeze the libertarian juice out of the Molinist lemon.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-9034043347491186652009-06-23T23:46:04.382-04:002009-06-23T23:46:04.382-04:00Hmmm! Stumped by Craig. Wow!Hmmm! Stumped by Craig. Wow!Rob Marthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12337710478252916268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-25482353466741691402009-06-23T19:09:29.611-04:002009-06-23T19:09:29.611-04:00Have you elaborated on why somewhere? (I searched ...Have you elaborated on why somewhere? (I searched Triablogue and didn't find much...)Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-88868327819909479502009-06-23T17:48:44.700-04:002009-06-23T17:48:44.700-04:00I don't find backward causation to be correct....I don't find backward causation to be correct.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-16263053249785329692009-06-23T16:52:41.823-04:002009-06-23T16:52:41.823-04:00Right; I realized that I was leaving the confines....Right; I realized that I was leaving the confines... they were just my ramblings (what do you think of backwards causation, anyway?)<br /><br />I'm not sure I understand the terms in your worlds comment. But I wont pester you about it.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44686649155360695802009-06-23T16:48:38.879-04:002009-06-23T16:48:38.879-04:00Andrew: regarding backward causation. The point wa...Andrew: regarding backward causation. The point was to explicate differences between Molinism and Compatibilism. I'm sure you have your intuitions that it is false, but they don't, and they have intuitions that determinism is false, as it undermines moral responsibility. So, we're now leaving the confines of your original question.<br /><br />Re: nearby worlds: Why would it bring in PAP in the actual world? In all worlds where I own a Bently, I would let you drive it, say. But if God actalized the world where I owned no Bently, then I don't do this. If he actualized a world where I did, then I would libertarianly do it. So, different conditions yield different libertarian results.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-56409028018349948912009-06-23T12:27:57.156-04:002009-06-23T12:27:57.156-04:00And in a way, backwards causality seems to violate...And in a way, backwards causality seems to violate the law of causation: if someone from the future can affect the present (from their perspective, the present affecting the past), then someone who doesn`t exist can cause something to happen. This seems to lead to some kind of eternal pre-existence...Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36746375760795540132009-06-23T11:48:36.746-04:002009-06-23T11:48:36.746-04:00Wouldn't invoking possible worlds simply be re...Wouldn't invoking possible worlds simply be repeating PAP? What relevance does that have to causal sourcehood?<br /><br />As for backwards causality, I suppose that could be the difference. It could explain how, virtually speaking, creatures exist before the foundation of the world in order to help God plan the future. But backwards causality seems intuitively nonsensical to me (and seems to make any biblical notion of an eternal decree to have no significance, since we always have the ability to change the plan now). It seems that the past is by definition something that is already fixed.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15712263265167041472009-06-23T11:20:51.968-04:002009-06-23T11:20:51.968-04:00Andrew,
Well, that's just part of the debate,...Andrew,<br /><br />Well, that's just part of the debate, ins't it :-) Forget Craig. Part of the debate is whether Molinism can keep LFW. Whether it leads to determinism anyway. (In fact, Part of the wider debate is whether infallible foreknowledge can keep LFW too.) I'm just letting you know what they would say and how they think it is different. So for Craig, God has a plan and wants an agent to act a certain way, he then instatiates the possible world where the agent libertarian freely acted that way because he knows what libertarian free agents would do in any circumstance. They would also presumably invoke nearby worlds to provide more evidence for the indeterminate action that happened in the actual world. And Craig (and other Molinists) even suggest that they believe that an agent has the power to make the counterfactual that applies to them, false. This would be counterfactual power over the past. That's a rough sketch of some of the things they'd probably say.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-56622146181143669652009-06-23T10:44:00.439-04:002009-06-23T10:44:00.439-04:00Paul,
Thanks for the comment! At this point, I pr...Paul,<br /><br />Thanks for the comment! At this point, I probably wont have the time to chase down those sources... would you mind offering your opinion on whether Molinism is substantially different from Calvinism without the libertarian PAP?<br /><br />As I mentioned above, I really don't understand how, on Craig's framework, how a creature chooses can be "up to them alone" when in fact God decided from before the foundation of the earth how they would decide, and works through providence to ensure they will choose as he decided. It seems to me that to be consistent in preserving LFW-as-ultimate-causal-source one would have to deny the comprehensive plan.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-40391784375401776732009-06-23T00:59:19.087-04:002009-06-23T00:59:19.087-04:00We can also see how PAP isn't necessary to lib...We can also see how PAP isn't necessary to libertarianism since some classical compatibilists will allow a form of "could have done otherwise." Though these views are losing favor.<br /><br />**********<br />The above begged some questions.<br /><br /><br />I meant: We can see that PAP doesn't always necessitate indeterminism, compatibilists think it fits with compatibilism too given a hypothetical reading of alternatives, though this view is falling out of favor.<br /><br />So, it may necessitate indeterminsm, but it's not obvious, there's still an argument that it fits with both.<br /><br />So, interestingly, just because Craig denies PAP doesn't make him a compatibilist since some compatibilists hold to a form of PAP!Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-85160323036947567092009-06-23T00:53:55.395-04:002009-06-23T00:53:55.395-04:00Andrew,
"(1) No doubt they do, but I`m wonde...Andrew,<br /><br /><i>"(1) No doubt they do, but I`m wondering precisely what the difference is between compatibilist freedom and LFW without alternate possibilities and with a comprehensive divine plan. Adding those two qualifications to LFW seems to gut it of any substantial difference between it and compatibilist freedom..."</i><br /><br />There are many libertarians who deny PAP and affirm a comprehensive plan; e.g., Hunt, Zagzebski, Craig, &c.<br /><br />For one, they would bring up source incompatibilism, ultimate responsibility, and self-forming characters into their account. These aren't compatibilistic.<br /><br />We can also see how PAP isn't necessary to libertarianism since some classical compatibilists will allow a form of "could have done otherwise." Though these views are losing favor.<br /><br />Basically, there are two major motivations for libertarian free will: (1) PAP and (2) ultimate Responsibility) i.e., that the agent is the ultimate source of his action, IOW, the relevant "causal buck" stops with him).<br /><br />Some indeterminists claim that (2) gets you all you need. So a libertarian could conceivably drop (1) and hold to (2), thus distancing himself from determinism.<br /><br />Now, how successful is this move? How successful is Molinism (or, Molinists who deny PAP)? There's some good arguments that suggest, "not very." Timpe (and Kane) argue that PAP needs to enter into the picture somewhere. But those guys still hold that (2) is what is <i>most</i> important (and you'll have to read their stuff to see how they cash out UR and why it is inconsistent with determinism. Kane spells it out in his books, and Timple in his latest, Sourcehood and its Alternatives).<br /><br />Hope that was of some partial help.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-12259864739911729532009-06-22T22:53:47.219-04:002009-06-22T22:53:47.219-04:00`I think Steven already identified a major distinc...`I think Steven already identified a major distinction. In Calvinism, God can pick anybody and guarantee that they will come. In Molinism, there are people out there who would never come, regardless of what situations He puts them in.`<br /><br />Well, perhaps. But even on Molinism it is only possible there are some people who are `transworld damned` (that there are does not follow *necessarily* from any conception of LFW); and even in Calvinism there are restrictions on what God can decree (as Frame has pointed out in his article on the mystery of creaturely integrity, God is limited in the sense that he can`t decree two opposite things about creatures; thus it could be possible that for some unknown historical reason to do with God`s consistency there are some people God cannot grant effectual grace to... at least I see no reason why we can be sure there are no such possible people). <br /><br />Anyway, this would only be a difference pertinent to effectual calling; I`m not sure it makes the general view of providence and free will distinct. But I could be wrong.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74475685627223498532009-06-22T22:30:34.087-04:002009-06-22T22:30:34.087-04:00I think Steven already identified a major distinct...I think Steven already identified a major distinction. In Calvinism, God can pick anybody and guarantee that they will come. In Molinism, there are people out there who would never come, regardless of what situations He puts them in.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-75454953736089538582009-06-22T20:45:27.085-04:002009-06-22T20:45:27.085-04:00I should note, too, that Congruism seems to distin...I should note, too, that Congruism seems to distinguish itself from Calvinism precisely by means of the PAP: the distinction between intrisically and extrinsically efficacious grace seems to be none other than “the creaturely will is free to reject such grace”.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89609847170162940502009-06-22T20:12:04.151-04:002009-06-22T20:12:04.151-04:00Good point, and thank you for bringing that up, I ...Good point, and thank you for bringing that up, I didn't know Craig thought that.<br /><br />I don't know the difference between Craig's conception of LFW and Calvinistic compatibilism, so I can't be of any more help to you. *shrug*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90541925096479332982009-06-22T19:51:59.164-04:002009-06-22T19:51:59.164-04:00(2) Brings up LFW again, which includes the issue ...(2) Brings up LFW again, which includes the issue in (1); also, while Molinists could go the pure Pelagian way you are suggesting, Craig certainly doesn`t (he holds to a view of grace called Congruism: “Via His middle knowledge, God knew which gifts of grace would be efficacious in eliciting the free, affirmative response of these creaturely wills. Therefore, He decreed to create a world containing these individuals and to accord to them those gifts of grace to which He knew they would freely respond. These gifts are extrinsically, not intrinsically, efficacious in that the creaturely will is free to reject such grace, but since such gifts are selected according to God's middle knowledge, they are congruent to each created will and therefore infallibly are met with an affirmative response.”) (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/lest.html).Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89616697010092438852009-06-22T19:42:20.381-04:002009-06-22T19:42:20.381-04:00(1) Interesting point here. Someone with more exte...(1) Interesting point here. Someone with more extensive knowledge of the metaphysical issues at hand will have to continue it from here rather than myself.<br /><br />(2) Maybe the qualification "would choose to believe in Christ <i>freely (in a libertarian sense) and of their own strength and ability</i>" was necessary :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58358457312959812982009-06-22T19:32:32.969-04:002009-06-22T19:32:32.969-04:00(1) No doubt they do, but I`m wondering precisely ...(1) No doubt they do, but I`m wondering precisely what the difference is between compatibilist freedom and LFW without alternate possibilities and with a comprehensive divine plan. Adding those two qualifications to LFW seems to gut it of any substantial difference between it and compatibilist freedom...<br /><br />(2) But a Calvinist could affirm that in a sense, too... it`s tautological for a Calvinist, but still meaningful...Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6662349377416049472009-06-22T19:28:00.560-04:002009-06-22T19:28:00.560-04:00(1) Maybe Molinists choose Molinism over Calvinism...(1) Maybe Molinists choose Molinism over Calvinism because they find libertarian conceptions of freedom more compelling and true than compatibilist conceptions of freedom while still wanting to remain true what scripture plainly teaches (that some are destined unto salvation and others damnation).<br /><br />(2) Maybe God instantiated the universe in which everyone who would choose to believe in Christ do, and all who wouldn't, don't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67762830924519493282009-06-22T19:24:46.159-04:002009-06-22T19:24:46.159-04:00Re: your second thought:
But on the Molinist sche...Re: your second thought:<br /><br />But on the Molinist scheme God`s foreknowledge is based on his decision of which possible world he is going to actualize. So again, in some sense how the creature decides in the matter of salvation is up to God, and before they even exist...Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44329670262663121052009-06-22T19:21:51.646-04:002009-06-22T19:21:51.646-04:00I`m not an expert either, fwiw.
I`m still not sur...I`m not an expert either, fwiw.<br /><br />I`m still not sure that that makes a difference, though: even on the Molinist framework God is in some sense `selecting` which possible world will be actual, and arranging persons in situations so that they will choose exactly as he planned. It is not up to the creature alone (in the sense that God`s decision before the foundation of the world had nothing to do with it) how the creature will choose.<br /><br />So then what is the functional difference between that and determining something, given that alternative possibility is not in play in either the Molinist (according to Craig) or Calvinist scheme?Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489605258427120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-17654216409485531252009-06-22T19:20:34.797-04:002009-06-22T19:20:34.797-04:00Another difference might be that under a Molinisti...Another difference might be that under a Molinistic framework, God predestines those to salvation which he knows would freely choose to believe in Christ, follow his commandments, etc., while under a Calvinistic framework, God chooses to predestine those whom he loves, not based on knowledge of their own future acts (which are determined by him anyway) but rather because of his own love for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-20118921406071783152009-06-22T19:11:11.121-04:002009-06-22T19:11:11.121-04:00Perhaps under the Calvinistic framework, there are...Perhaps under the Calvinistic framework, there are no possible universes where S could freely choose X (in a libertarian sense) and others where S freely chooses Y (in a libertarian sense), but rather there are possible universes where God determines S to choose X and others where God determines S to choose Y.<br /><br />Is there a difference, do you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com