tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post7955043740362112644..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: The healing debateRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-81269666278981446292014-01-29T16:52:41.478-05:002014-01-29T16:52:41.478-05:00Yeah, I see now what Dr. White was trying to do. H...Yeah, I see now what Dr. White was trying to do. He wasn't just trying to address Brown's view, but realized that he was before a charismatic TV audience and so took that opportunity to help balance out the unbalance or erroneous views of the people watching. <br /><br />I tried watching the atonement debate, but couldn't finish it. I don't see the point of debating that topic before such an audience. It's pointless IMO. It would have been better if they <i>did</i> debate predestination rather than the more advanced topic of Limited Atonement. Something which even <a href="http://calvinandcalvinism.com/" rel="nofollow">many Calvinists</a> have doubted, rejected or modified. I personally think Limited Atonement makes a lot of logical and theological sense, but the Bible is underdetermined on the topic. I lean toward it, but not dogmatic on it.<br /><br /><i>they needed to cover algebra more in depth before going to Calculus. </i><br /><br />Well put.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-76291970832577460672014-01-29T16:43:42.219-05:002014-01-29T16:43:42.219-05:00The subjective nature of the whole thing makes it ...<i>The subjective nature of the whole thing makes it very difficult in practical application. </i><br /><br />Agreed. But we both know that living the Christian life isn't supposed to be easy.<br /><br />Mueller wrote:<br /><i>Think not, dear reader, that I have the gift of faith, that is, that gift of which we read in 1 Corinthians 12:9, and which is mentioned along with “the gifts of healing,” “the working of miracles,”prophecy,” and that on that account I am able to trust in the Lord. It is true that the faith, which I am enabled to exercise, is altogether God's own gift; it is true that He alone supports it, and that He alone can increase it; it is true that, moment by moment, I depend upon Him for it, and that, if I were only one moment left to myself, my faith would utterly fail; but it is not true that my faith is that gift of faith which is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:9....It is the self-same faith which is found in every believer...for little by little it has been increasing for the last six and twenty years.</i><br /><br />He was either right or wrong. I suspect he's right about how by God's grace (and obviously in God's foreordination), we can and should increase the "grace of faith."ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71364592274019245372014-01-29T16:32:58.847-05:002014-01-29T16:32:58.847-05:00But every believe has some measure of faith.
I ag...<i>But every believe has some measure of faith.</i> <br />I agree. I think that's what Rom. 12:3 implies.<br /><br /><i>"I believe You, Lord, that You are able to heal; please I humbly ask you to heal this person in the powerful name of Jesus Christ." Matthew 9:28 - Jesus asked the man, "Do you believe I am able to do this?" Daniel 3:17-18 - "Our God is able to deliver us" but if He doesn't . . . we still will not bow down to the idol, etc. I believe God is able - but if He doesn't heal me, I will still love and praise and cling to Him; I will fight bitterness and complaining in my heart if He does not heal me. May Your will be done.</i><br /><br />Great prayer. I would pray that kind of prayer also believing that God is disposed to healing the sick. That barring any overarching providential purposes, God is willing, ready even desirous to heal the sick. Christ reveals the Father's heart and during His earthly ministry He often had mercy and compassion on people for their salvation (e.g. Matt. 9:36), healing (Matt. 14:14) and bodily needs (Matt. 15:32). By God's prescriptive will, He's ready to heal upon the condition of "sufficient" faith. By God's dispositional will, He is by nature a God who delights to bless. As Thomas Watson wrote that God is like a bee in that, "The bee naturally gives honey, it stings only when it is provoked..." It's God's nature to be gracious, generous, compassionate, kind etc.<br /><br />BTW, George Mueller was apparently a Calvinist. See <a href="http://misclane.blogspot.com/2014/01/george-mueller-apparently-was-calvinist.html" rel="nofollow">HERE</a> and <a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/biographies/george-muellers-strategy-for-showing-god" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-72418290979012683972014-01-29T15:38:32.671-05:002014-01-29T15:38:32.671-05:00I'd rather see Sam Storms vs. Phil Johnson. Ma...I'd rather see Sam Storms vs. Phil Johnson. MacArthur is a great Bible teacher, but Johnson is more intellectually and theologically minded.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14569638024038409622014-01-29T09:48:25.241-05:002014-01-29T09:48:25.241-05:00I was glad that Dr. White approached it the way he...I was glad that Dr. White approached it the way he did. He needed to speak against the common views and word of faith views to the general audience, while at the same time he knew M. Brown's very nuanced position. The issues of time and audience and the nature of TV and the way the moderators had it structured, made that necessary. <br /><br />They needed more time to cover things more fully, but overall, it was good debate.<br /><br />The atonement debate illustrated that even more. People wanted to talk about Predestination /election more, probably because the atonement focus went over their head and that is like skipping algebra and going to Calculus - they needed to cover algebra more in depth before going to Calculus. Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-65392309414862924652014-01-29T09:41:15.004-05:002014-01-29T09:41:15.004-05:00"the gift of faith" - I can that as a sp..."the gift of faith" - I can that as a special gift given to some on some occasions; yes. Seems to me I remember lots of examples of that in the George Meuller stories. That seems to be what 1 Cor. 12:9 means. But every believe has some measure of faith. "I believe You, Lord, that You are able to heal; please I humbly ask you to heal this person in the powerful name of Jesus Christ." Matthew 9:28 - Jesus asked the man, "Do you believe I am able to do this?" Daniel 3:17-18 - "Our God is able to deliver us" but if He doesn't . . . we still will not bow down to the idol, etc.<br /><br />I believe God is able - but if He doesn't heal me, I will still love and praise and cling to Him; I will fight bitterness and complaining in my heart if He does not heal me. May Your will be done.<br /><br />Those mustard seed and remove mountain passages are big challenges to me, after I study the context and other passages on God's sovereignty, and get rid of the word of faith movement type interpretations, they are still a great challenge as to what exactly do they mean. <br /><br />The subjective nature of the whole thing makes it very difficult in practical application. <br /><br /><br /><br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45658781537136641912014-01-29T09:27:34.487-05:002014-01-29T09:27:34.487-05:00I remember as a young Christian, the guy who disci...I remember as a young Christian, the guy who discipled me read a lot of the George Meuller's stories of answered prayer - it was amazing. I don't see how a normal person can live at level of intensity and lack of structure/organization. If they are all true, he had an amazing life of faith and prayer.<br /><br />John Piper seems to have the right balance. I can appreciate his method of ministry and he has the right balance.<br /><br />Sam Storms is probably the most forceful Calvinist in arguing for continuationism, and IF I recall correctly, he takes a view similar to John Wimber, - that is not enough to be open to spiritual gifts, but one has to then "take risks" and have special times of "after-glow" or "carpet time" - lots of waiting and praying and tonuges and then saying what comes to mind to others, etc. (prophesy). I totally disagree with that - it seems too much trying "to make things happen". <br /><br />Storms vs. MacArthur - now that would be a real debate on the spiritual gifts. Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-54390696452689195352014-01-29T05:32:29.703-05:002014-01-29T05:32:29.703-05:00But not as much as the NT days, it seems to me.
...<i>But not as much as the NT days, it seems to me. </i><br /><br />There may be a reason for this in the Western world where it's much easier to document miracles. <br /><br />In <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m3Irau6rDg&feature=youtu.be&t=1h28m34s" rel="nofollow">THIS DEBATE</a>, Hugh Ross (astrophysicist, apologist, and pastor) says that his Church is in between CalTech and JPL so there are a lot of scientific and engineer minded people who attend his church. In his church they practice praying for the sick by the elders. As they did, they approached it scientifically. They noticed that when they were in the habit of announcing healings from the pulpit (presumably on Sundays) there were significantly fewer healings then when they kept it completely secret when people were healed. Ross connected that with the multiple times Jesus would sometimes tell the people He healed not to tell anyone about it. <br /><br />Roger Sapp (charismatic teacher with Master of Divinity and Doctor of Philosophy degrees) noticed a similar phenomenon in his healing ministry. Ross and Sapp interpret that phenomenon slightly differently. But I suspect that beyond the problem of unbelief in the Western church, another major reason (among many other reasons) why God doesn't perform very dramatic and undeniable miracles is because it would interfere with God's providential plan for the world. But since we don't know what that plan is, or if or when there will be a dramatic change in the way God providentially operates, we are therefore free to pray with hope. <br /><br />For example, hypothetically let's say Post-millennnialism is true and that God plans to convert the majority of the world by the year 2214 right before the return of Christ. That's 200 years from now. God may use documented healings of amputees and other signs and wonders 50 years before the return of Christ. In which case, we're living 150 years too early. And so, God may not perform such documented miracles until then. But we don't know that. For all we know, God plans to start performing such miracles next year. Or the next time you or I pray for someone.<br /><br />Speaking of Roger Sapp, here's a link to my blog where I list some of his <a href="http://charismatamatters.blogspot.com/2013/07/recommended-resources-on-healing.html#sapp-books" rel="nofollow">BOOKS</a> and <a href="http://charismatamatters.blogspot.com/2013/07/recommended-resources-on-healing.html#sapp-audio" rel="nofollow">AUDIO/VIDEO</a>. There are a few charismatic "healers" (for lack of a better word) that I personally believe consistently and genuinely operate in the supernatural by God's power. He's at the top of that list.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-81398025899961186412014-01-29T05:30:15.025-05:002014-01-29T05:30:15.025-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-70393825181103069062014-01-29T00:56:11.047-05:002014-01-29T00:56:11.047-05:00...I am mystified by, because usually Calvinists d...<i>...I am mystified by, because usually Calvinists don't write the way you have on this. </i><br /><br />The following Calvinistic continuationists have differing views on the degree of expectation we can or should have for healing. But all of them have a higher expectation than what's normally taught among cessationistic Calvinists. <br /><br />Andrew Murray, Wayne Grudem, Sam Storms, A.J. Gordon, Matt Slick, Vincent Cheung, Johanes Lilik Susanto . I've got links to some of their writings on healing <a href="http://charismatamatters.blogspot.com/2013/07/recommended-resources-on-healing.html" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>. While John Piper is also a Calvinistic continuationist, he seems to have the regular kind of expectation for healing as most other Calvinists. I'm not sure where James K. A. Smith stands as a Calvinistic Pentecostal scholar who teaches at Calvin College. I would assume he'd be in the former group and not with Piper.<br /><br /><i>Yes, and we all live in a fallen, broken world and we get sick and we all are going to die. Sometimes God heals, many times through doctors, etc. and sometimes by miracles. But not as much as the NT days, it seems to me. </i><br /><br />Agreed. Except for the last line. Miracles are happening globally everywhere except in Western countries where the doubts of secularism has infected the thinking of many Christians. Many of the Calvinists I mentioned above have argued that when there have been lesser miracles it's been due to unbelief on the part of Christians. I would agree, but would also say that that too is under God's sovereign control. Now is a time when God seems to be sovereignly raising the level of faith among many Christians globally. Even among Calvinists. Amazingly, there's a growing number of people who consider themselves "Reformed Charismatics" when just a few decades ago that phrase would have been an oxymoron.<br /><br /><i>True that our healing is in the atonement, but usually we don't see physical healing until glorification in heaven. </i><br /><br />You can't get an "ought" from an "is." For example, it is a fact that we DO sin daily, but we shouldn't infer from that fact that we *ought* to. Even if, statistically speaking, most people don't get healed, we shouldn't set the bar there.<br /><br />"You know however that our duties by no means depend on our hopes of success, but that it behooves us to accomplish what God requires of us, even when we are in the greatest despair respecting the results."<br />-John Calvin, letter to Phillip Melanchthon, March 5 1555<br />ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86792556546799298562014-01-29T00:28:38.279-05:002014-01-29T00:28:38.279-05:00How far ? How long do we keep praying? repeating t...<i> How far ? How long do we keep praying? repeating the same request? more fervency?</i><br /><br />I think expectant faith based on God's revealed will should always be balanced by the slight reservation of "if it be thy will." By "Will" I mean #1 and #2 in my five distinctions, namely God's will of decree and God's will of intention. That can help prevent devastating disappointment. Also, as one prays such prayers, God is free at any time to grant the "gift of faith" which is a supernatural endowment that externally comes upon someone to believe great things and/or answer to prayers. Mueller and others have discussed that kind of gift. <br /><br />How long to pray? So long as there is hope. To take healing as an example, so long as the person is alive. But since we don't know what God's actually going to do (apart from an extra-biblical revelation, which I believe still occur), I think we should also be wise to prepare for death as well. Some charismatics have been so "confident" that someone was going to be healed that things like wills weren't written and other forms of unpreparedness. <br />Even then, I don't rule out resurrections. However, past 4 days (as in the case of Lazarus), I would advise people to let the person go. However, it's still not beyond the realm of possibility since even Abraham was ready to accept the resurrection of Isaac even after he was burnt to ashes. In those instances, I would say "according to your faith let it be unto you." <br /><br />The problem is that most charismatics believe in self-generated faith. In Calvinism, faith is the gift of God. Whether it's the initial faith for justification, daily faith, faith for sanctification, faith for healing, the growth of faith, even the decrease of faith is ultimately in God's control. Even though, we're called to do what we can to use means to increase faith (e.g. Scripture, prayer, fellowship, worship etc.).<br /><br />George Mueller prayed for the conversion of 5 individuals daily for 52 years till the day of his death. The first got saved after 18 months. Five more years a 2nd was saved. Six more years, a 3rd was converted. The last two weren't saved until after he died. I think we should strive for that kind of perseverance in prayer. We grow into it. So we shouldn't have any sense of condemnation or pressure. <a href="http://findinghopeinchrist.com/home/2011/perfection/cs-lewis-on-perfection/" rel="nofollow">C.S. Lewis wrote</a> "As a great Christian writer (George MacDonald) pointed out, every father is pleased at the baby’s first attempt to walk; no father would be satisfied with anything less than a firm, free, manly walk in a grown-up son. In the same way, he said, ‘God is easy to please, but hard to satisfy.’ "<br /><br />Mueller wrote:<br /> It is not enough to begin to pray, nor to pray aright; nor is it enough to continue for a time to pray; but we must patiently, believingly continue in prayer, until we obtain an answer; and further, we have not only to continue in prayer unto the end, but we have also to believe that God does hear us and will answer our prayers. Most frequently we fail in not continuing in prayer until the blessing is obtained, and in not expecting the blessing. ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-48671638106652880552014-01-29T00:26:11.781-05:002014-01-29T00:26:11.781-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-79277540138489490032014-01-28T23:51:14.515-05:002014-01-28T23:51:14.515-05:00I agree that's the obvious immediate applicati...I agree that's the obvious immediate application. But again, that doesn't rule out an interpretation that's to be applied to miraculous answer to prayer.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44875918395190268962014-01-28T22:36:23.175-05:002014-01-28T22:36:23.175-05:00ALSO pray, "according to you revealed will th...ALSO pray, "according to you revealed will that the sick be healed". IMO, God's revealed will is clearly health. <br /><br /><i> I cannot see it; we pray for people all the time with cancer, etc. and eventually, the cancer takes them out. Just don't see too many miraculous stuff take place. The Charismatics/Pentecostals get excited and jump up and down and scream, etc. and believe and make statements of certainty; and those don't pan out either. ( In my experience) - I know that is not good to go by experience, but . . . that's reality. The Scriptures are true; but this is one area that I am mystified by, because usually Calvinists don't write the way you have on this. </i><br />Sickness is a manifestation of the punishment for sin. <i> Yes, and we all live in a fallen, broken world and we get sick and we all are going to die. Sometimes God heals, many times through doctors, etc. and sometimes by miracles. But not as much as the NT days, it seems to me. </i><br />Not necessarily our sin, but at the very least the sin of Adam and Eve. Christ came to bring redemption as "far as the curse is found." <br /><i> True that our healing is in the atonement, but usually we don't see physical healing until glorification in heaven. </i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-76969954011825318012014-01-28T22:21:52.188-05:002014-01-28T22:21:52.188-05:00These verses - Matt. 17:14-21 (eps. verse 20); Mar...These verses - Matt. 17:14-21 (eps. verse 20); Mark 9:14-29 (esp. verse 23); - do seem to say that the "mountain" is the sickness/disease in those contexts. But those are for sure at that time, as historical narrative, Jesus expected them to exercise faith and ask God for healing, etc. But I just don't understand how that kind of thing works in practical ministry. How far ? How long do we keep praying? repeating the same request? more fervency? more loud praying and begging and crying? People say big things in emotional highs and say things like, "I know for sure that God is going to heal you", etc. It didn't happen. It is devastating for someone who is quadraplegic. Of course, I have believed God for miracles many times before, after reading Jack Deere's book, Surprised by the Power of the Spirit and Wayne Grudemn's material (you have mentioned some of this above, along with D. A. Carson. Carson's book, Showing the Spirit, (A theological exposition of 1 Cor. 12-14 - a very good book). But after several years of that; I went back to the cessationist position. (Never saw God do any thing miraculous.) The overzealous Charismatics in our group caused harm by raising the expectations too high. It is depressing for those whose expectations don't get met. The whole thing of "expectant faith" is too subjective. Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-91406859318419434092014-01-28T22:09:34.347-05:002014-01-28T22:09:34.347-05:00In your view, is the mulberry tree in Luke 17:5-6 ...In your view, is the mulberry tree in Luke 17:5-6 symbolic of something and not literal? If so, what is it symbolic of? <br /><br /><i> in verses 1-4 - they wanted increased faith to be able to forgive people who hurt them, and keeps doing it seven times over. Apparently, they were saying, "Wow; that takes a lot of faith to forgive people who hurt us over and over and You have told us we must forgive them. That takes a lot of faith; increase our faith.!" </i><br /><br />5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"6 And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.- Luke 17:5-6Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23084105689577593172014-01-28T16:27:50.731-05:002014-01-28T16:27:50.731-05:00In your view, is the mulberry tree in Luke 17:5-6 ...In your view, is the mulberry tree in Luke 17:5-6 symbolic of something and not literal? If so, what is it symbolic of? <br /><br /><i>5 The apostles said to the Lord, "<b>Increase our faith!</b>"6 And the Lord said, "If you had <b>faith like a grain of mustard seed</b>, you could <b>say to this mulberry tree</b>, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.</i>- Luke 17:5-6<br /><br /><br />Notice that Jesus uses the phrase "faith like a grain of mustard seed" there just like in Matt. 17:20. <br /><br /><i> He said to them, "Because of your little <b>faith</b>. For truly, I say to you, if you have <b>faith like a grain of mustard seed</b>, you will <b>say to this mountain</b>, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and <b>nothing will be impossible for you.</b>"</i>- Matt. 17:20<br /><br />I don't think the previous verses, Luke 17:1-4, necessarily rule out the possibility that Jesus is speaking literally. Especially in light of the fact that Scripture repeated encourages us to grow in faith. While our experiences should inform our interpretation of Scripture, it shouldn't nullify Scripture's teaching. Often, we lower Scripture's meaning because our lives do not reflect what Scripture expects of us. We all do this. Yet there are Christians, from all Christian traditions and denominations, down through the centuries who seem to have experienced greater things than we 21st century Christians normally do. I'm including Reformation and Calvinistic believers. <br /><br />See for example:<br /><br /><a href="http://charismatamatters.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-reformation-discussion-of.html" rel="nofollow">A Reformation Discussion of Extraordinary Predictive Prophecy Subsequent to the Closing of the Canon of Scripture by the Session of the PRCE</a> <br /><br /><br /><a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-charismatic-covenanters.html" rel="nofollow">The charismatic covenanters</a><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://charismatamatters.blogspot.com/2013/08/john-calvin-apparently-received-word-of.html" rel="nofollow">John Calvin Apparently Received a Word of Knowledge from God </a><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/PGET_ch3.htm" rel="nofollow">Extraordinary Gifts and Church Officers </a><br /><br />And more generally of Christianity....<br /><br /><a href="http://charismatamatters.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-ministry-of-healing-by-aj-gordon.html" rel="nofollow">The Ministry of Healing by A.J. Gordon </a><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://charismatamatters.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-suppressed-evidence-or-proofs-of.html" rel="nofollow">The Suppressed Evidence: Or, Proofs of the Miraculous Faith and Experience of the Church of Christ In All Ages </a>ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-63507242101811023192014-01-28T15:55:46.581-05:002014-01-28T15:55:46.581-05:00The way those verses are so abused (Mark 11:22-25)...<i>The way those verses are so abused (Mark 11:22-25); there needs to be a lot more teaching on the context of the temple, the lack of fruit, judgment on Israel and the Pharisees (Matthew 21:43-45)</i><br /><br />I don't think your interpretation rules out a secondary interpretation that includes my understanding. See Vincent Cheung's chapter 5 of his book <a href="http://www.vincentcheung.com/books/invinfaith.pdf" rel="nofollow">Invincible Faith</a>. Chapter 5 is titled, "Faith to Move Mountains". He's a Calvinistic continuationist like myself.<br /><br />But let's say my interpretation is wrong in Matt. 21:43-45 and Mark 11:22-25. What do you do with these other passages that deal with faith and/or prayer?<br /><br />Matt. 17:14-21 (eps. verse 20); Mark 9:14-29 (esp. verse 23); Luke 17:5-6; John 14:12-14; 15:7, 16; 16:23-24; Matt. 7:7-11; Luke 11:5-13; 18:1-8; 1 John 3:21, 5:14-15<br /><br />My interpretation of Matt. 21:43-45 and Mark 11:22-25 is consistent with the expectant faith encouraged in those passages I just cited.<br /><br />Also, you haven't addressed the "gift of faith." It's logically possible to hold to a position that people should never pray with expectant faith unless and until one has received the gift of faith for such a miracle. That was George Mueller's view regarding healing.<br /><br /><b>Mueller wrote:</b><br /><br />"It pleased the Lord, I think, to give me in some cases something like the gift (not grace) of faith, so that unconditionally I could ask and look for an answer. The difference between the gift and the grace of faith seems to me this. According to the gift of faith I am able to do a thing, or believe that a thing will come to pass, the not doing of which, or the not believing of which would not be sin; according to the grace of faith I am able to do a thing, or believe that a thing will come to pass, respecting which I have the word of God as the ground to rest upon, and, therefore, the not doing it, or the not believing it would be sin. For instance, the gift of faith would be needed, to believe that a sick person should be restored again, though there is no human probability: for there is no promise to that effect; the grace of faith is needed to believe that the Lord will give me the necessaries of life, if I first seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness: for there is a promise to that effect. (Matt. vi. 33.)" <br /><a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26522/26522-h/26522-h.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26522/26522-h/26522-h.htm </a>ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-63074131482611579712014-01-28T15:28:17.316-05:002014-01-28T15:28:17.316-05:00D.A. Carson wrote:
It is also argued that because...D.A. Carson wrote:<br /><br />It is also argued that because "there is healing in the atonement," as the slogan puts it, every believer has the right to avail himself or herself to the healing benefit secured by the cross. Sadly, noncharismatics have sometimes responded to this by denying that there is healing in the atonement – a position that can be defended only by the most strained exegesis. <b>Of course there is healing in the atonement. In exactly the same sense, the resurrection body is also in the atonement</b> – even though neither charismatic nor noncharismatic argues that any Christian has the right to demand a resurrection body right now. The issue is not "what is in the atonement," for surely all Christians would want to say that every blessing that comes to us, now and in the hereafter, ultimately flows from the redemptive work of Christ. The issue, rather, is what blessings we have a right to expect as universally given endowments right now, what blessings we may expect only hereafter, and what blessings we may partially or occasionally enjoy now and in fullness only in the hereafter.<br /><br />Wayne Grudem wrote:<br />All Christians would probably agree that in the atonement Christ has purchased for us not only complete freedom from sin but also complete freedom from physical weakness and infirmity in his work of redemption. And all Christians would also no doubt agree that our full and complete possession of all the benefits that Christ earned for us will not come until Christ returns: it is only "at his coming" (1 Cor. 15:23) that we receive our perfect resurrection bodies. So it is with physical healing and redemption from the physical sickness that came as a result of the curse in Genesis 3: our complete possession of redemption from physical illness will not be ours until Christ returns and we receive resurrection bodies...When people say that complete healing is 'in the atonement,' the statement is true in an ultimate sense, but it really does not tell us anything about when we will receive 'complete healing' (or any part of it).<br /><br />Quotes taken from <a href="http://charismatamatters.blogspot.com/2013/07/vincent-cheung-on-healing.html" rel="nofollow">Biblical Healing</a> (2012 edition) by Vincent Cheung pages 9-10ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-27376598129839214312014-01-28T15:26:02.087-05:002014-01-28T15:26:02.087-05:00I don't think Jesus expected them to rebuke th...<i> I don't think Jesus expected them to rebuke the waves or wind; I cannot see that at all. </i><br /><br />Jesus reaction seems to be similar to when the disciples wondered whether Jesus was talking about literal bread when He said to beware of the leaven of the Scribes, Pharisees and Herod (Matt. 16; Mark 8). <br /><br /><i>8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "O you of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread?9 Do you not yet perceive? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered?10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you gathered?</i> - Matt. 16:8-10<br /><br />Yet, notice what Jesus originally told them "They [the hungry multitude] need not go away; <b>YOU</b> give them something to eat.." (Matt. 14:16; Mark 6:37; Luke 9:13). Jesus may have been expecting <b>them</b> to perform a miracle of feeding the multitude. Jesus ended up doing it Himself, but used the disciples to distribute it.<br /><br />BTW, I don't deny, but actually affirm, that the cursing of the fig tree was symbolic of God's judgment on the nation of Israel. But I also think Jesus was being literal when He spoke about faith there.<br /><br /><i>Prayer is humility and asking God to remove it and heal it; the over-all emphasis in Scripture seems to be humilty and asking God, and a humble spirit under His sovereignty - not "speaking to it". "May Your will be done" Matthew 6:10; "May Your will be done, not mine" - Luke 22:42 - seems to be the emphasis.</i><br /><br />I agree prayer requires humility. I have no problem praying "if it be thy will" if we mean if it be thy <b>sovereign will of decree</b>. Since, it's not always God's sovereign will of decree to do so. But I think we can ALSO pray, "according to you revealed will that the sick be healed". IMO, God's revealed will is clearly health. Sickness is a manifestation of the punishment for sin. Not necessarily our sin, but at the very least the sin of Adam and Eve. Christ came to bring redemption as "far as the curse is found." <br /><br />Even D.A. Carson and Wayne Grudem agree that healing is in the atonement. And they rightly state that the final and ultimate healing comes at glorification. Healing now is like sanctification, it's can be progressive and can fluctuate.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23964256307650669082014-01-28T14:59:37.919-05:002014-01-28T14:59:37.919-05:00Bosworth shows how in the OT "thorns in the s...Bosworth shows how in the OT "thorns in the side" referred to opposition by personalities (i.e. the pagan tribes who would oppose and tempt the people of God). Also, my views aren't affected even if Paul's thorn was sickness since I believe God does does sometimes send sickness for various reasons. I just think Paul makes it clear that the "messenger" is literally an angel. An evil angel sent by God's permission to oppose him. I've read that in the Greek the messenger is called a "he" not an "it". So, it makes sense it's a literal demonic personality and not an impersonal sickness. Only a Greek scholar can say whether that makes a difference or not in this situation. I'm not a scholar. In that passage Paul talks about how God's power is perfected in his weakness. Many think that refers to some sickness. But in the previous chapter, Paul talks about his weakness and it's not in the context of sickness, but of the trials, troubles and persecution he experienced in the ministry.<br /><br /><i>...but if we don't know what is behind a sickness, (could be natural under God's providence in creation, God directly sending it; or from Satan) it does not seem right to just start rebuking fevers and headaches</i><br /><br />Whatever is not of faith is sin (Rom. 14:23). So, if one has a nagging doubt or scruples, they shouldn't do it. BTW, I'm a Calvinistic continuationist (even "charismatic"). And though my fellow charismatics don't always do so, we ought to believe that it is ultimately God who does the healing or miracle. Therefore, God understands what we mean (along with our theology) even if we make a mistake. My original point was that Jesus sometimes spoke to inanimate objects or nature and also (incredibly) encouraged the disciples to do so as well. Remember, Jesus said that if we had the faith, we too could (if it be in God's purpose/will/intention) to curse a fig tree (Matt. 21:20-22 cf. Mark 11:20-24). Notice that in that passage Jesus was referring to a literal fig tree (an inanimate object). Then He goes on and talks about moving "mountains". It makes most sense (at least to me) that Jesus is also talking about a literal mountain there since he was also talking about a literal fig tree. That's unlike Matt. 17:20 where it's understandable for people to interpret the "mountain" there as figurative.<br /><br /><i>I cannot see that as something we have authority to imitate. </i><br /><br />I guess It boils down to whether we interpret Jesus literally in Matt. 21:20-22 cf. Mark 11:20-24 and whether it also applies to (all or some) modern Christians. One could argue that Jesus was being literal but it only applied to Jesus' immediate disciples. Though, I don't interpret it that way.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8784611680282649572014-01-28T10:50:48.567-05:002014-01-28T10:50:48.567-05:00Jesus rebuked the wind and waves and apparently ex...Jesus rebuked the wind and waves and apparently expected the disciples to have done the same since He rebuked them for small faith. <br /><br /><i> Or it was their "littleness of faith" in the one in the boat with them, who is the creator of the wind and waves and has authority over them. I don't think Jesus expected them to rebuke the waves or wind; I cannot see that at all. </i><br />Jesus also rebuked a fig tree and told the disciples that they could do the same. <br /><br /><i> that seems to be teaching a lesson on the lack of fruit and lack of repentance in our lives - "bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance" (Matthew 3:8; Luke 3:8; Acts 26:20) - we are to "rebuke" lack of repenance and lack of reality in our lives. The "Mountain" in that context (Mark 11, Matthew 21) seems to be the mountain of the temple (Micah 4; Isaiah 2, Isaiah 56 - the foreigners who want to know the true God and come to the temple; "the mountain of the house of the Lord") that should have been "a house of prayer for all the nations" - Jesus turns over the money-changers, etc. </i><br /><br />Jesus also said that one could speak to a mountain and move it. <br /><br /><i> The way those verses are so abused (Mark 11:22-25); there needs to be a lot more teaching on the context of the temple, the lack of fruit, judgment on Israel and the Pharisees (Matthew 21:43-45), "My house shall be a house of prayer for all the nations", etc. before I would accept any meaning that emphasizes our authority to "speak to thinkgs like sicknesses", etc. </i><br />Whether Jesus was referring to a literal mountain or figuratively of problems, most sick people would consider their sicknesses as problematic. <br /><br /><i> Prayer is humility and asking God to remove it and heal it; the over-all emphasis in Scripture seems to be humilty and asking God, and a humble spirit under His sovereignty - not "speaking to it". "May Your will be done" Matthew 6:10; "May Your will be done, not mine" - Luke 22:42 - seems to be the emphasis.</i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-75056337669792006862014-01-28T09:26:45.640-05:002014-01-28T09:26:45.640-05:00It seems to me Paul's thorn in the flesh is si...It seems to me Paul's thorn in the flesh is similar to the physical, financial, & emotional suffereings that God allowed into Job's life, as in Job chapters 1-2. The "thorn in the flesh" points to something physcial and painful, it seems; and "weakness" is used to describe physical sicknesses.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-844563177799351842014-01-28T09:23:19.082-05:002014-01-28T09:23:19.082-05:00I think the context of that passages is best inter...I think the context of that passages is best interpreted to mean that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" is demonic opposition and persecution (see chapter 14 of F.F. Bosworth's book Christ the Healer)<br /><br /><i> I cannot see that as the correct interpretation. It seems like something painful that God allowed sovereignly that Paul was to endure by grace. The purpose "to keep me from exalting myself" repeated twice makes it clear as to the main purpose. God gives grace for us to endure pain and suffering because a gracious attitude is a more powerful witness. Joni Eareckson Tada's godly testimony is "power manifested in weakness". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94uqMo68ZDo<br /><br />Thanks for all your other comments and how serious and thorough you are in thinking about these issues.<br /><br />I can see rebuking demons IF demons actually manifest themselves, in the course of ministry, as Jesus and the apostles did.<br /><br />but if we don't know what is behind a sickness, (could be natural under God's providence in creation, God directly sending it; or from Satan) it does not seem right to just start rebuking fevers and headaches, as my Charismatic friends do so often. Jesus rebuked the wind and the waves, yes; but that is historical narrative and He is the creator. I cannot see that as something we have authority to imitate. </i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-53711441685770115232014-01-28T00:15:15.323-05:002014-01-28T00:15:15.323-05:00If anyone missed the debate and wants to watch it,...If anyone missed the debate and wants to watch it, here are the links to <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETPrg-LTsuQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUbINn3x-intLp88Zrf8acpg" rel="nofollow">PART ONE</a> and <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYpf67OxEv4&feature=share&list=UUbINn3x-intLp88Zrf8acpg&index=3" rel="nofollow">PART TWO</a>.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.com