tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post7826601559916847750..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Why Arminians say Arminians are damnedRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-60417147007108709382010-08-07T13:42:51.354-04:002010-08-07T13:42:51.354-04:00Dear Steve,
There's not much of substance for...Dear Steve,<br /><br />There's not much of substance for me to respond to in your last two posts. I suppose I could go through your comments and show how you are context dropping or changing the subject, but that would feel like arguing for the sake of arguing rather than seeking truth.<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-63809790230271951122010-08-07T10:21:28.690-04:002010-08-07T10:21:28.690-04:00Cont. “If salvation includes coming to faith, then...Cont. “If salvation includes coming to faith, then we come to faith through faith.”<br /><br />Wrong again. We “come to” justification through faith, we “come to” faith through regeneration, and we “come to regeneration” through saving grace. <br /><br />“From this it’s clear (at least to me) that in the context of saved by grace through faith, that saved is equivalent to justified, forgiven, redeemed and adopted. The grace that leads to faith is a different topic.”<br /><br />”Clear to you” because you confuse and oversimplify the process.<br /><br />“Faith and justification are related concepts, but the two are conceptually distinct.”<br /><br />I never conflated the two. That’s just your tendentious way of first imputing to me something I never said or implied, then “correcting” my alleged mistake.<br /><br /> “We believe; God justifies the believer. It’s true, simple, and cleanly solves the problem you find yourself in above.”<br /><br />To the contrary, that only pushes the problem back a step. What’s the source of justifying faith? <br /><br />You’re doing a fine job of illustrating how little credit Arminians give to God. You want the least God you can get away with.<br /><br />“To my knowledge, the reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Melanchthon, Bullinger, Knox….) didn’t use the terms monergism or synergism, nor did their Roman Catholic opponents.”<br /><br />You’re back to your bad habit of committing the word=concept fallacy. The question at issue is the concept of sola gratia. Is it monergistic or synergistic?<br /><br />“Likewise, when Calvinists say sanctification is synergistic, they are not denying sanctification is by grace, nor are they saying man has LFW with respect to sanctification.”<br /><br />i) When using “synergism” in the technical sense, they avoid “synergism” in reference to sanctification. Instead, they use “cooperation.” <br /><br />ii) The comparison with sanctification doesn’t help you, for that’s another case in which Arminianism denies sola gratia. In Calvinism, the process of sanctification is the inevitable result of monergistic regeneration. Moreover, God preserves the regenerate from committing apostasy. So the human will is not an independent variable, unlike Arminianism. Rather, we have a cause/effect relation.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23001716580752156252010-08-07T10:20:51.588-04:002010-08-07T10:20:51.588-04:00GODISMYJUDGE SAID:
“Putting on hold the issue abo...GODISMYJUDGE SAID:<br /><br />“Putting on hold the issue about defining synergism for the moment... you seem to be saying we are accountable for a part of our salvation, despite the fact that we don’t cause it. But the issue with ‘saved by grace through faith’ one of accountably – God’s reason for saving by grace through faith is so we will be unable to boast. If the cause of faith doesn’t determine accountability, and accountability is the issue, then the cause of faith isn’t the real issue at hand. In short, you are not really denying one of the premises, so you are stuck with the conclusion.”<br /><br />i) I’m discussing “accountability” because you’re trying to artificially reduce and shift the issue to “responsibility,” and in the process you equivocate. That obviously doesn’t mean I accept your framework. Indeed, I made it clear that I don’t accept your framework.<br /><br />ii) Accountability is by no means the only issue. There’s the central issue of what it means to be saved solely by grace, which you’re attempting to divert attention away from.<br /><br />iii) ”Responsibility” is a moral or legal category. It isn’t “synergistic” in the sense of “two parties working together.” You’re jumping categories again.<br /><br />That’s analogous to the distinction between justification and sanctification. Justification, like responsibility, is a forensic state, not a subjective process. <br /><br />“As for your statement that we do not cause faith, many Calvinists are satisfied by saying we do not cause regeneration even if we do cause faith.”<br /><br />What Calvinists typically say is that faith is a gift of God. They also say monergistic regeneration causes faith. Born-again Christians exercise faith, but they don’t cause faith. <br /><br />“We are saved through faith.”<br /><br />I never said we're “saved through faith.” Faith is a necessary condition of salvation. And we are justified by faith (alone).stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-72273429387788579772010-08-06T17:08:51.303-04:002010-08-06T17:08:51.303-04:00Me: “Further I would define synergism in terms of ...<i>Me: “Further I would define synergism in terms of two parties working together.”<br /><br />Thee: Which is not what “synergism” means in the conflict with Rome.</i><br /><br />To my knowledge, the reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Melanchthon, Bullinger, Knox….) didn’t use the terms monergism or synergism, nor did their Roman Catholic opponents. But in the 1800’s folks started using the terms to define Luther and Calvin’s view in contrast to Melanchthon’s view. But as best I can tell they were not talking about LFW. Rather, they were talking about the cause of regeneration. Is it just God or God and us? In the 1800’s, many of the theologians I have read that combat synergism are combating a “moral influence” theory of regeneration.<br /><br />In discussion about Catholicism, there’s a slight shift in the context since some Catholics either give faith an instrumental role in justification or define justification as the infusion of grace to produce good works in us. LFW isn’t really the issue since in this sense, even a Dominican would be a synergist. <br /> <br />Likewise, when Calvinists say sanctification is synergistic, they are not denying sanctification is by grace, nor are they saying man has LFW with respect to sanctification.<br />Not that you cannot find some Calvinists who equate LFW with synergism and some Arminians who accept the label synergist, since they hold to LFW. But even then the issue seems to be if God alone is responsible for faith or God and man. <br /><br />So I think what is going on here is that synergism retains the meaning “two parties working together”, but the connotation shifts along with the context.<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47800157202986867692010-08-06T17:08:12.741-04:002010-08-06T17:08:12.741-04:00Steve,
Me: “If you hold that 1) believing is our ...Steve,<br /><br /><i>Me: “If you hold that 1) believing is our act, 2) we are responsible for our acts and 3) believing is part of salvation, then it follows that we are responsible for part of our salvation.”<br /><br />Thee: That’s another one of your evasive equivocations. “Responsible” has more than one meaning. It can mean “accountable/liable,” or it can denote a causal relation, as in: “pilot error was responsible for the crash” (i.e. the pilot caused the plane to crash).<br /><br />In Calvinism, we are “responsible” in the sense of having a duty to believe, and being culpable in case we shirk that obligation.<br /><br />But a Christian is not the cause of saving faith. Rather, God’s grace is the cause of saving faith. So a Christian is not “responsible” for saving faith in the causal sense. And that’s what makes it monergistic rather than synergistic (in the technical sense of the terms).</i> <br /><br />Putting on hold the issue about defining synergism for the moment... you seem to be saying we are accountable for a part of our salvation, despite the fact that we don’t cause it. But the issue with “saved by grace through faith” one of accountably – God’s reason for saving by grace through faith is so we will be unable to boast. If the cause of faith doesn’t determine accountability, and accountability is the issue, then the cause of faith isn’t the real issue at hand. In short, you are not really denying one of the premises, so you are stuck with the conclusion.<br /><br />As for your statement that we do not cause faith, many Calvinists are satisfied by saying we do not cause regeneration even if we do cause faith. The new nature desires to follow Christ. You have, at times, said faith includes an act of the will. <br /><br /><i>To say that saving faith is the result of saving grace is hardly a tautologous formula. That’s not reducible to “faith is through faith.”</i><br /><br />We are saved through faith. If salvation includes coming to faith, then we come to faith through faith. From this it’s clear (at least to me) that in the context of saved by grace through faith, that saved is equivalent to justified, forgiven, redeemed and adopted. The grace that leads to faith is a different topic.<br /><br /> <i>You keep resorting to that evasive, palpably defective formula. But in Scripture, faith in Christ is clearly a necessary condition of salvation (excluding special cases).Therefore, you can’t separate faith from salvation.</i><br /><br />Faith and justification are related concepts, but the two are conceptually distinct. We believe; God justifies the believer. It’s true, simple, and cleanly solves the problem you find yourself in above.Godismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-59092058224480694182010-08-05T09:34:40.870-04:002010-08-05T09:34:40.870-04:00Godismyjudge said...
“This is because faith does ...Godismyjudge said...<br /><br />“This is because faith does not save us, God’s grace does.”<br /><br />You keep resorting to that evasive, palpably defective formula. But in Scripture, faith in Christ is clearly a necessary condition of salvation (excluding special cases).Therefore, you can’t separate faith from salvation. <br /><br />Your only out is to separate faith from grace. But since faith and salvation are inseparable (see above), if you separate faith and grace, then you deny salvation by grace alone.<br /><br />“If you hold that 1) believing is our act, 2) we are responsible for our acts and 3) believing is part of salvation, then it follows that we are responsible for part of our salvation.”<br /><br />That’s another one of your evasive equivocations. “Responsible” has more than one meaning. It can mean “accountable/liable,” or it can denote a causal relation, as in: “pilot error was responsible for the crash” (i.e. the pilot caused the plane to crash).<br /><br />In Calvinism, we are “responsible” in the sense of having a duty to believe, and being culpable in case we shirk that obligation. <br /><br />But a Christian is not the cause of saving faith. Rather, God’s grace is the cause of saving faith. So a Christian is not “responsible” for saving faith in the causal sense. And that’s what makes it monergistic rather than synergistic (in the technical sense of the terms).<br /><br />“As I explained to Steve, in the phrase, ‘saved by grace through faith’ saved must be taken in the narrow sense as justification – otherwise we end up with the absurd idea that faith is through faith.”<br /><br />To say that saving faith is the result of saving grace is hardly a tautologous formula. That’s not reducible to “faith is through faith.”<br /><br />That’s just one of Dan’s rhetorical gimmicks. And it fails.<br /><br />“He rejected the narrow sense and maintained the broad sense. In which case it follows that, per Calvinism (or at least per Steve), we end up being responsible for part of our salvation. This violates grace alone in the expression ‘saved by grace through faith’…”<br /><br />The “violation” only ensues if we allow Dan to trade on conspicuous equivocations. <br /><br />“Further I would define synergism in terms of two parties working together.”<br /><br />Which is not what “synergism” means in the conflict with Rome.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68061362699074135112010-08-05T09:15:17.607-04:002010-08-05T09:15:17.607-04:00Godismyjudge said...
“The Protestants did not den...Godismyjudge said...<br /><br />“The Protestants did not deny that men cooperate in their own conversion, taking that word in the sense in which the Romanists used the term (and the still broader term justificatio), as including the whole work of turning unto God. No one denies that the man in the synagogue cooperated in stretching out his withered arm or that the impotent one at the pool was active in obeying the command of Christ, ‘Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.’ But the question is, Did they cooperate in the communication of vital power to their impotent limbs? So Protestants do not deny that the soul is active in conversion, that the ‘arbitrium a Deo motum’ freely assents.’<br /><br />You’re using “cooperation” as if it were a synonym for “synergism.” That’s incorrect.<br /><br />i) In historical theology, “synergism” is a technical term. It’s not equivalent to “cooperation.”<br /><br />If you want to use “synergism” in a popular, modern sense (i.e. “interaction”), you’re free to do so, but don’t anachronistically substitute that innovation for historic theological usage, then accuse me of using “salvation” in “atypical” fashion. <br /><br />ii) To say man is “active” in “conversion” is also equivocal. At which stage of the process? In Reformed theology, man is passive in regeneration. However, regeneration produces faith (among other things). Man is “active” in believing, but saving faith is the effect of saving grace. <br /><br />So the “activity” or “cooperation” is still grounded in monergism.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90176407101734280232010-08-05T09:03:01.828-04:002010-08-05T09:03:01.828-04:00SLW SAID:
“That right there should tell us that f...SLW SAID:<br /><br />“That right there should tell us that faith isn't the stuff of works, which is often the argument Calvinists make against Arminians. Faith is not at odds with grace, so not contrastible.”<br /><br />Actually, you just confirmed the accuracy of the charge. Faith would be a work if you decouple faith from grace. <br /><br />“If salvation is likened to sunlight, faith would be the window that lets in the light. The light is what it is, the window doesn't produce it, it is merely the means for it to get inside the room.”<br /><br />Your metaphor is not an argument. And it’s not exegeted from relevant prooftexts. It’s just a distraction.<br /><br />“That confounds grace and faith. Faith by this reckoning is just a category of grace. In that case, the five solas should be reduced to four to avoid repetition.”<br /><br />Illogical. Grace/faith is a cause/effect relationship. As such, faith isn’t reducible to grace–anymore than effects are reducible to causes.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26547586563288282032010-08-04T17:54:20.007-04:002010-08-04T17:54:20.007-04:00Me: "Dan N.,
Are you personally:
(1) For t...<b>Me</b>: "Dan N.,<br /><br />Are you personally:<br /><br />(1) For the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy? And against and oppose those who promote that the Bible is not inerrant?<br /><br />(2) For Biblical patriarcy and complementarianism and against egalitarianism and women's ordination?<br /><br />(3) For Creationism and against theistic evolution?"<br /><br /><b>Dan N.</b>: "Yes I am."<br /><br />Yay!!! An inerrantist Arminian who's for biblical patriarchy and creationism.<br /><br />If anyone's going to be an Arminian, I hope they're all doctrinally like you, Dan N.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-31625993581200587572010-08-04T17:45:32.269-04:002010-08-04T17:45:32.269-04:00Your too funny Peter.
God be with you,
DanYour too funny Peter. <br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-2386475596861355412010-08-04T15:49:59.522-04:002010-08-04T15:49:59.522-04:00Dan said:
---
If that’s what you mean, then I agre...Dan said:<br />---<br />If that’s what you mean, then I agree that Arminianism is synergistic and Calvinism is not, but I disagree that this understanding of synergism conflicts with the idea that we are saved by grace through faith<br />---<br /><br />You can disagree if you want, but that's a different issue. This whole thing got started because you said:<br />---<br />Again, even if faith is a necessary result of grace, man still believes, per Calvinism. That's synergistic.<br />---<br /><br />And then I asked:<br />---<br />How does that become synergistic?<br />---<br /><br />That's all I was ever focused on in our discussion, and now you've agreed with me that Calvinism is not synergistic. But don't worry, as I don't mind that you answered a bunch of questions I didn't ask you in the process too as in the future I won't have to ask you those questions :-)<br /><br />By the way, I love how my word verification this time is "eperp." Makes me feel like a hacker or something.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22689224608162130202010-08-04T13:47:37.723-04:002010-08-04T13:47:37.723-04:00Peter,
My point about responsibly didn’t start wi...Peter,<br /><br />My point about responsibly didn’t start with your analogy, but if you say the analogy was just focused on monergism/synergism, without looking at responsibility, OK, I am willing to relook at it. <br /><br />I take it that the point of the analogy is to define and explain monergism with respect to faith. Your main point seems to be that “synergism requires that the one being saved produce something *apart from the work of God* so that they are saved” . I take *apart from the work of God* as a way of expression libertarian freedom, rather than a denial that Arminians hold to prevenient grace. I also take it that the analogy does not deny that believing is our mental action nor does it deny that we are responsible for believing. In essence you are saying LFW (not action or responsible action) is a if not the key element in defining synergism. <br /><br />If that’s what you mean, then I agree that Arminianism is synergistic and Calvinism is not, but I disagree that this understanding of synergism conflicts with the idea that we are saved by grace through faith. This is because faith does not save us, God’s grace does. I also disagree that this is a good way to understand synergism and it’s not what Arminians mean when they say they are synergists and I doubt it’s what you meant when you said sanctification is synergistic in Calvinism.<br />By way of response, I would first off point out that such a definition of synergism is irrelevant to the issue of salvation by grace through faith. If you hold that 1) believing is our act, 2) we are responsible for our acts and 3) believing is part of salvation, then it follows that we are responsible for part of our salvation. I reject 3, faith does not save, God’s grace does. <br />To be clear, I understand that salvation can be taken in a narrow or broad sense: either it can mean justification, forgiveness, redemption, and adoption (heretofore justification) or salvation can mean the whole process leading up to justification including the precursors to faith. As I explained to Steve, in the phrase, ‘saved by grace through faith’ saved must be taken in the narrow sense as justification – otherwise we end up with the absurd idea that faith is through faith. He rejected the narrow sense and maintained the broad sense. In which case it follows that, per Calvinism (or at least per Steve), we end up being responsible for part of our salvation. This violates grace alone in the expression “saved by grace through faith” without even getting around to your definition of synergism.<br /><br />Further I would define synergism in terms of two parties working together, as you did before your analogy and as Sproul does. BTW, Sproul, in context is talking about justification not sanctification. The topic at hand is the relationship between regeneration and faith (i.e. choosing or receiving Christ).<br /> <br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-3612915734413815042010-08-04T04:10:07.533-04:002010-08-04T04:10:07.533-04:00Truth Unites and Divides,
Yes I am. I also know m...Truth Unites and Divides,<br /><br />Yes I am. I also know many Arminians who are in agreement with me, and many Calvinists who would NOT affirm the things you said. Especially when it comes to Evolution vs Creationism.Dan Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17935821981003851731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32830056754316500802010-08-04T01:02:00.020-04:002010-08-04T01:02:00.020-04:00Dan N.,
Are you personally:
(1) For the Chicago ...Dan N.,<br /><br />Are you personally:<br /><br />(1) For the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy? And against and oppose those who promote that the Bible is not inerrant?<br /><br />(2) For Biblical patriarcy and complementarianism and against egalitarianism and women's ordination?<br /><br />(3) For Creationism and against theistic evolution?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47179918163060260002010-08-03T22:26:51.228-04:002010-08-03T22:26:51.228-04:00Pilgrims Harbor, I placed Reformation in front of ...Pilgrims Harbor, I placed Reformation in front of Orthodox Presbyterian Church because the local OPC around here is called Reformation OPC. When refering to the OPC I sometimes make that mistake. Thanks for your input, as well as the input from Truth Unites...Truth DividesMr. Guthriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789464810788711789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-60314312955314809372010-08-03T20:51:25.983-04:002010-08-03T20:51:25.983-04:00The current Calvinist denominiations, such as the ...<i>The current Calvinist denominiations, such as the Reformation Orthodox Presbyterian Church are not that old; they are formed by those who came out of liberal denominations which had at one time been orthodox.</i><br /><br />This is a minor point but it goes to credibility; that's the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, not the <i>Reformation</i> Orthodox Presbyterian Church.<br /><br />But you make an excellent point. Believers all throughout history have found it necessary to return to their first love, the Lord Jesus Christ, through more and more faithfulness to His Word, even when that meant abandoning something that once was faithful to begin faithfulness anew someplace else. Semper Reformanda!Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71850756947132922452010-08-03T20:00:10.678-04:002010-08-03T20:00:10.678-04:00Dan said:
---
Not that pointing out your inconsite...Dan said:<br />---<br />Not that pointing out your inconsitency between your views of monergism and responsibility is off topic here.<br />---<br /><br />But you miss the whole point of analogies, which is to reduce the level of complexity so that one particular aspect is in view at any given time. Hence, my analogy was only focused on monergism vs. synergism. As I said, if I wanted an analogy dealing with responsibility, I would have given you an analogy on responsibility because I would have focused on that particular issue. Had I wanted to focus on *both* I would have given yet another analogy that would deal with two issues simultaneously. In other words, it's highly uncharitable for you to claim a contradiction in an analogy when the author of the analogy never intended to address your alleged contradiction in the first place.<br /><br />Anyway, you also said:<br />---<br />I did address monergism/synergism directly.<br />---<br /><br />Really? All I saw was a quote from Sproul, which if I recall correctly, was more concerned with sanctification than justification. No Calvinist denies that sanctification is synergistic. But given what I know of Sproul's view, there is no way he would have said faith, in the context of justification, is synergistic.<br /><br />Furthermore, this renders the passive/active distinction you make irrelevant too. After all, when we say we are justified by faith, it is to say that the one who has faith *already has* all that is needed for salvation. Which, under Calvinism, means that he has already been regenerated, and by the basis of that regeneration he has faith. This is before his faith *does* anything. He is declared justified and is saved. *THEN* his faith produces works and the process of sanctification begins.<br /><br />And remember, I don't have to argue for the *actualization* of any of these for our current discussion, because it is *your* claim that Calvinists have synergism because of the requirement of faith (and that requires you to assume Calvinism true for the sake of argument). You still have yet to demonstrate this synergism.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39428910669697251292010-08-03T19:46:57.362-04:002010-08-03T19:46:57.362-04:00Peter,
I did address monergism/synergism directly...Peter,<br /><br />I did address monergism/synergism directly. Not that pointing out your inconsitency between your views of monergism and responsibility is off topic here. God's reason for saving us by grace through faith is so that we would not be able to boast.<br /><br />We do believe. That's our act, not God's. So from that point of view there are two acters, two energies, two erges, synergism... But faith does not save, God's grace does.<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23870316385993585332010-08-03T19:04:13.364-04:002010-08-03T19:04:13.364-04:00"None of those passages define one sort of fa..."None of those passages define one sort of faith" SLW<br /><br />God grants genuine faith to sons of wrath who are dead, those who are His elect, His sheep, who believe.<br /><br />The sons of wrath that don't believe are not His sheep. If they were His sheep they would.<br />Yet they say they believe, but their faith if not genuine.<br /><br />The true sheep have been given faith. The false sheep have their own faith, their own righteousness, and own love.<br /><br />Our love is from the Spirit, who pours it into our hearts. Faith is a gift of the Spirit, a gracious gift.<br /><br />So, it seems simple to me.<br /><br />You see it different.<br /><br />All the Bible I read and shared is awesome truth of God's grace toward rotten sinners like us.<br /><br />He grants us an incredible honor to repent, believe, worship, and love our Lord, and be heirs with Christ of all things. <br /><br />One day we will have perfect righteousness and love, and we will have no more faith, that gracious gift will be gone, for ever.<br /><br />But now we need to trust God with all our hearts, and not to lean to our own understanding, and He will lead us in His paths of service and goodness.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10954701762030533972010-08-03T17:59:15.376-04:002010-08-03T17:59:15.376-04:00Dan,
I'm not dealing with responsibility. If...Dan,<br /><br />I'm not dealing with responsibility. If I were dealing with responsibility, I would have used a different illustration. I'm dealing with synergism verses monergism. It is quite difficult to have a conversation with you if you're going to keep changing the topic.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45223609171830118252010-08-03T16:23:13.726-04:002010-08-03T16:23:13.726-04:00Peter,
The intuitive point of the analogy is that...Peter,<br /><br />The intuitive point of the analogy is that we are not responsible for our actions if they are predetermined by someone else – but this works against Calvinism as a whole. If you admitted that you would win the battle but lose the war. I just don’t see how you can use this analogy at all – it’s predicated on distinctly Arminian ideas. Apply the same analogy to the reprobate. Would you say they don’t deserve hell since they contribute nothing of their own power?<br /><br />Some Calvinists appeal to asymmetry between God’s dealings with the elect and the reprobate. Perhaps you think man is responsible for unbelief, but not belief? But your analogy doesn’t explain how that could be. Given determinism, any asymmetry would relate to HOW God pre-determines what we do, not THAT He pre-determines what we do. Effectuious grace is a direct intervention on God’s part, whearas His dealings with the reprobate could be explained via indirect means. But still, if the predetermination of our actions is based on some combination of our nature and circumstances; then it boils down to creation and providence. Me hiring someone else to drive the car or allowing someone to steal it knowing they would drive it from A to B doesn’t seem like a significant modification to the analogy. <br /><br />But more to the point, the car is passive in driving whereas we are active in believing (per Dort). Sproul puts it this way: When God regenerates a human soul, when He makes us spiritually alive, we make choices. We believe. We have faith. God does not believe for us. Faith is not monergistic.” Chosen by God p 118.<br />Ultimately it’s not about sufficient/necessary cause of faith; the key is that faith does not save, God’s graces does.<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28203028007921072472010-08-03T15:34:08.450-04:002010-08-03T15:34:08.450-04:00Mr. Guthrie: "Holland used to be a Calvinist...<b>Mr. Guthrie</b>: <i>"Holland used to be a Calvinist enclave; Kuyper served as Prime Minister for a time. Now Holland is the most un-Christian nation in Europe. </i>"<br /><br />No argument here. Holland has gone down the tubes. <br /><br /><i>"Would it be fair to say that Calvinism leads to government tolerance of heavy drug use and open prostitution and the promotion of euthenasia as is the case in Holland today?"</i><br /><br />It would be fairer to say that the abandonment of Biblical Christianity and the Doctrines of Grace has lead to the current situation in Holland.<br /><br /><i>"It was Puritan New England that morphed into New England Unitarianism."</i><br /><br />It sure did. What a travesty.<br /><br /><i>"There are few Calvinist theological institutions over 100 years old that can still be classified as orthodox in its teachings."</i><br /><br />That damned Perverter is doing his thing.<br /><br /><i>"The current Calvinist denominiations, such as the Reformation Orthodox Presbyterian Church are not that old; they are formed by those who came out of liberal denominations which had at one time been orthodox.</i>"<br /><br />God preserves a remnant, thankfully!<br /><br /><i>"Yes, there are some Arminians who deny the inerrancy of scripture and what scripture teaches concerning Creation.</i>"<br /><br />I think there's a Triablogue post or two about Arminianism and the aberrant doctrine of Open Theism.<br /><br />"<i>Yet there are Calvinists who also fall into this category. It is Tim Keller who wrote "Creation, Evolution, and Christian Lay People" for Francis Collins' Biologos website, stating that our belief in God is genetic in origin and that Adam was the product of evolution while Eve was specially created and that Genesis one is not to be read as history but as poetry. There has been little if any criticism of Keller from prominant Calvinist spokesmen.</i>"<br /><br />I have seen criticism of Keller. Whether the people who are critical of Keller's theistic evolution are prominent enough in your eyes, I can't say. <br /><br /><i>"It is Bruce Watke who has said that if the Church does not embrace evolution the Church will be seen as a cult." </i><br /><br />Bruce Waltke has definitely be critiqued for his theistic evolution promotion.<br /><br /><i>"No Christian theological system, whether Calvinist or Arminian, is a preserver of theological orthodoxy by itself."</i><br /><br />Okay. But Calvinism is better than Arminianism.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-63182357305591674462010-08-03T15:24:28.617-04:002010-08-03T15:24:28.617-04:00donsands,
None of those passages define one sort o...donsands,<br />None of those passages define one sort of faith as gracious and another as non-gracious. They just relate faith in different kinds of circumstances. Any effort to label them isn't coming from the texts, but from the reader of the texts.<br /><br />If anything these texts leave the onus of what becomes of faith on the person professing it.SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-85123831986092607332010-08-03T15:16:23.932-04:002010-08-03T15:16:23.932-04:00Dan (Godismyjudge version!):
An analogy comes to ...Dan (Godismyjudge version!):<br /><br />An analogy comes to mind.<br /><br />Suppose you build a car. You put all the pieces together. You weld metal, you link electrical systems, you screw bolts in place, put on belts, etc. Further suppose that somehow in the midst of all this, you manage to make the vehicle self-aware (it's an analogy, so don't fret over the impossibilities here).<br /><br />Now suppose that in order for cars to not be destroyed, they have to be fully functional. The engine has to work, in other words, and they have to be able to drive from point A to point B.<br /><br />So after you're finished building this car, you climb in and turn the key. The car roars to life and you drive from point A to point B. When you climb out of the car, the car looks at you and says, "I am so glad that I synergistically worked with you."<br /><br />Would you agree? Or would you instead say, "Excuse me, car, but I put you together in such a way that you, of necessity, would accomplish exactly what I wanted you to accomplish. At no point did I need *you* to manufacture something on your own to contribute to how this process worked. I built you, I ensured all the parts were needed to get from point A to point B. What did you contribute of your own power?"<br /><br />Does this help you see your problem, Dan? Because when we go back to the issue of salvation, synergism requires that the one being saved produce something *apart from the work of God* so that they are saved. Since Calvinism says that faith is from God, then having faith is not apart from the work of God.<br /><br />Yes, it is true that Calvinists have faith; but it's true in the above that the car's engine ran. Just as you cannot say the engine running in the example was due to something apart from the mechanic who built the car, so too you cannot say that under Calvinism faith comes apart from God. There is only ever one worker involved in salvation, and that is God; hence, monergism.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-56965484378988379002010-08-03T14:58:47.006-04:002010-08-03T14:58:47.006-04:00"The Bible does not do that, it just calls fa..."The Bible does not do that, it just calls faith, faith." SLW<br /><br />The Bible says that deamons believe, and tremble. That's a different faith methinks.<br /><br />And Paul says to the church in Corinth:<br /><br />"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain."<br /><br />Jesus tells us that some believe, but riches choke it, and the world pressures it, and so it is unfruitful.<br /><br />And He says: "For to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.” Mark 4<br /><br />And in Luke it is a bit more clear: "Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away.”" -Jesus<br /><br />And you also have the man Simon in Acts 8 who believed, but his heart was not right with God, peter tells us.<br /><br />So you have the faith delivered to us, the saving faith which God grants to all who are ordained to believe.<br />And you have devil's faith, which a lot of people have. It's not true faith, not fruit from the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />That's how I see it.<br /><br />JC Ryle says: "There are myriads of professing Christians in every Church whose union with Christ is only outward and formal....Christians of this stamp are aptly represented by branches in a vine which bear no fruit. Useless and unsightly, such branches are onlt fit to be cut off and burned."<br /><br />Their faith is vain.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.com