tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post7801950504728924434..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: MotivationsRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90953093919745225272011-04-29T13:49:49.604-04:002011-04-29T13:49:49.604-04:00Hi Space Bishop -- As far as this sentence is conc...Hi Space Bishop -- As far as this sentence is concerned: <br /><br /><i>"to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor"</i><br /><br />I copied it directly from the CCC website. First, this was probably written in Latin and translated into English. Second, the language about "guaranteeing" "the minimum", these are rules that the RCC has put into place to assure that the folks, who have "got to do their part," do these things, at least, so as to get across the finish line properly. <br /><br /><i>Also how do you know that the priest was just incorrect? That actually salvation is a gift according to Rome?</i><br /><br />Not sure what you're asking here. The priest that I referenced was telling me, "we've gotta do our part." I knew that this was the case according to Roman teaching. <br /><br />However, even though "we do our part," it is God who, through the Church, "gives the grace," in such a way that the works that need to be done, are (according to Roman doctrine) done in such a way that they are said to be "meritorious" according to Roman doctrine. <br /><br />Does that answer your question?John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-63900853811039153142011-04-29T13:30:24.037-04:002011-04-29T13:30:24.037-04:00what does this sentence mean?
"to guarantee...what does this sentence mean? <br /><br />"to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor"<br /><br />It is very badly constructed. <br /><br />Also how do you know that the priest was just incorrect? That actually salvation is a gift according to Rome?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6513363404026419302011-04-29T12:30:06.191-04:002011-04-29T12:30:06.191-04:00I can see from this "Catechism of Pius X"...I can see from this "Catechism of Pius X" that Rome was peddling Tetzelian ideas still in the early 20th century:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/psacr-p.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/psacr-p.htm</a><br /><br />"129 Q: What is a plenary Indulgence? <br /><br />A: A plenary Indulgence is that by which the whole temporal punishment due to our sins is remitted. Hence, if one were to die after having gained such an Indulgence, he would go straight to Heaven, being, as he is, perfectly exempt from the pains of Purgatory."<br /><br /><br />And again, just how was a simple RC layman supposed to understand teachings like this?<br /><br />"123 Q: What fruits does a good confession produce in us? <br /><br />A: A good confession: (1) Remits the sins we have committed and gives us the grace of God; (2) Restores us peace and quiet of conscience; <a href="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/psacr-p.htm" rel="nofollow">(3) Reopens the gates of Heaven and changes the eternal punishment of hell into a temporal punishment;</a> (4) Preserves us from falling again, and renders us capable of partaking of the treasury of Indulgences."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64340709487564944102011-04-29T12:06:53.915-04:002011-04-29T12:06:53.915-04:00John,
I am doing well. Been extremely busy with ...John,<br /><br />I am doing well. Been extremely busy with work lately and haven't been too involved with the blogosphere. Just reading for the enjoyment factor. <br /><br />Glad to hear you're doing well and try to take it easy on us Catholics. Ha!<br /><br />I'm sure I'll comment on your posts on occasion if the Lord so moves me. <br /><br />Talk to you soon.TheDenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01249467690546096072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8694377390126782982011-04-29T12:00:05.660-04:002011-04-29T12:00:05.660-04:00Now here is that Catechism of Trent that Bull cite...Now here is that Catechism of Trent that Bull cited:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-p.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-p.htm</a><br /><br />"Necessity Of Confession<br /><br />Contrition, it is true, blots out sin; but who does not know that to effect this it must be so intense, so ardent, so vehement, as to bear a proportion to the magnitude of the crimes which it effaces? This is a degree of contrition which few reach; and hence, in this way, very few indeed could hope to obtain the pardon of their sins. It, therefore, became necessary that the most merciful Lord should provide by some easier means for the common salvation of men; and this He has done in His admirable wisdom, by giving to His Church the keys of the kingdom of heaven. <br /><br />According to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, a doctrine firmly to be believed and constantly professed by all, if the sinner have a sincere sorrow for his sins and a firm resolution of avoiding them in future, although he bring not with him that contrition which may be sufficient of itself to obtain pardon, all his sins are forgiven and remitted through the power of the keys, when he confesses them properly to the priest. Justly, then, do those most holy men, our Fathers, proclaim that by the keys of the Church the gate of heaven is thrown open, a truth which no one can doubt since the Council of Florence has decreed that the effect of Penance is absolution from sin."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89896861224042644372011-04-29T11:51:30.077-04:002011-04-29T11:51:30.077-04:00Whoops, it looks like that that catechism I just l...Whoops, it looks like that that catechism I just linked to was NOT the post-Tridentine "Catechism of Pius V" (late 16th century) but rather the "Catechism of Pius X", early 20th century!<br /><br />Well, it is authoritative RC teaching in any case.Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32722557980770399352011-04-29T11:42:43.738-04:002011-04-29T11:42:43.738-04:00"The Catechism of Pius V" that Bull refe..."The Catechism of Pius V" that Bull referred to is available online. One can see that it literally teaches that a single confession can change the hell-bound person to heaven-bound one (even if through the Purgatory).<br /><br />What sort of conclusions is a simple unregenerate lay-Romanist supposed to make from teachings like this?<br /><br /><br />"123 Q: What fruits does a good confession produce in us? <br /><br />A: A good confession: (1) Remits the sins we have committed and gives us the grace of God; (2) Restores us peace and quiet of conscience; <a href="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/psacr-p.htm" rel="nofollow">(3) Reopens the gates of Heaven and changes the eternal punishment of hell into a temporal punishment;</a> (4) Preserves us from falling again, and renders us capable of partaking of the treasury of Indulgences."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-57138009867112760362011-04-29T11:41:59.792-04:002011-04-29T11:41:59.792-04:00Never heard the term "Proudestant" befor...Never heard the term "Proudestant" before.<br /><br />Dat's a funny one!<br /><br />P.S. Glad you're on the Main Highway (I-5 Solas), John!Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45660278509594276822011-04-29T11:25:24.788-04:002011-04-29T11:25:24.788-04:00Viisaus, you always amaze me!Viisaus, you always amaze me!John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-11223262364506516032011-04-29T11:21:54.412-04:002011-04-29T11:21:54.412-04:00"Viisaus seems to be very familiar with 19th ..."Viisaus seems to be very familiar with 19th century polemical material."<br /><br />Actually <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_Bull" rel="nofollow">George Bull</a> was rather a man of the "Glorious Revolution" era...<br /><br /><br />"within Roman Catholicism, there has historically been this unspoken understanding"<br /><br />Bull provides proof that this has not been merely an UNSPOKEN understanding, but one that could rely on the Tridentine Catechism:<br /><br />"But in the Roman Catechism, (which was allowed and published by the order of the Trent Fathers and Pope Pius the Fifth, and is therefore as much their doctrine as any thing decreed by them in their sessions), it is so manifestly delivered, that there is no room for contradiction, in the fifth chapter of the second part of the Sacrament of Penance.1 The sum of their doctrine there, is plainly this: <br /><br />"That true contrition, joined with the love of God above all things, is indeed a thing very desirable, and most acceptable to God, even without the sacrament of Penance; but because very few have this true contrition, that therefore God, out of His infinite mercy and indulgence, hath provided for the common salvation of men in a more easy way.""<br /><br /><a href="http://www.archive.org/stream/englishtheologi00davigoog#page/n24/mode/2up" rel="nofollow">http://www.archive.org/stream/englishtheologi00davigoog#page/n24/mode/2up</a><br /><br /><br />"Evangelical Christianity would never encourage a person to do that."<br /><br />R.L. Dabney <a href="http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/popery.htm" rel="nofollow">wrote</a> about this subject thus:<br /><br />"Now, Rome comes to him and tells him that this Protestant doctrine is unnecessarily harsh; that a sinner may continue in the indulgence of his sins until this life ends, and yet not seal himself up thereby to a hopeless hell; that if he is in communion with the Holy Mother Church through her sacraments, he may indulge himself in this darling procrastination without ruining himself forever. Thus the hateful necessity of present repentance is postponed awhile; sweet, precious privilege to the sinner!"Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58667149654440963282011-04-29T10:02:29.570-04:002011-04-29T10:02:29.570-04:00Hey Jeff, welcome!
Viisaus seems to be very famil...Hey Jeff, welcome!<br /><br />Viisaus seems to be very familiar with 19th century polemical material. I think the point is that, while deathbed conversions certainly about in Christianity, within Roman Catholicism, there has historically been this unspoken understanding that, if you are Catholic, you can get away with [whatever you're getting away with], and so long as you get to confession, you'll be all right.<br /><br />Evangelical Christianity would never encourage a person to do that. For us, "now is the hour of salvation". Tomorrow is not promised to the sinner.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-60396123777241498902011-04-29T09:50:52.996-04:002011-04-29T09:50:52.996-04:00I find myself wondering if Viisaus is suggesting t...I find myself wondering if Viisaus is suggesting that a Protestant pastor visiting the same dying reprobate would - or SHOULD - offer something less than the open arms of Christ to the dying reprobate? Both the Arminian and Reformed revivalist traditions abound with stories of deathbed conversions, making this criticism of the Roman perspective a bit shallow. And our Lord seemed to have little problem with it either, if the parable of the laborers has anything to do with this (Mat. 20:1-16).<br /><br />Well said, as always, John! I look forward to following you here!Jeff Rudloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16714274375550557004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-38047274015741722012011-04-29T09:31:41.359-04:002011-04-29T09:31:41.359-04:00Hi Den. Steve Hays made me an offer I couldn't...Hi Den. Steve Hays made me an offer I couldn't refuse. I'm doing well, how have you been?John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-76681910748009716702011-04-29T09:23:13.795-04:002011-04-29T09:23:13.795-04:00Hey John...wondering what happened. Too busy to c...Hey John...wondering what happened. Too busy to comment lately but still reading on occasion. Hope you're having a blessed Easter.TheDenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01249467690546096072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-17283791877855911272011-04-29T08:11:50.034-04:002011-04-29T08:11:50.034-04:00Anglican bishop George Bull (whom Calvinists btw a...Anglican bishop George Bull (whom Calvinists btw also opposed for pushing good-works Arminianism) wrote bitingly:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.archive.org/stream/englishtheologi00davigoog#page/n26/mode/2up" rel="nofollow">http://www.archive.org/stream/englishtheologi00davigoog#page/n26/mode/2up</a><br /><br /><br />"Suppose a man to have lived in a course of wickedness for fifty or sixty years, and being now upon his deathbed, to be attrite for his sins, that is, heartily to grieve for them only out of the fear of hell, (and he is a bold man indeed that will not in earnest fear hell when it gapes upon him, and is ready to devour him,) and in that fear to purpose amendment of life, if God restore him, and to have a hope of pardon; (and in so comfortable a Church as the Roman, who hath any reason to despair?) this man, according to the doctrine of the Council of Trent, though he cannot be saved without the sacrament of Penance, yet with it he may. <br /><br />If he hath but breath enough to tell the Priest the sad story of his vicious life, and beg absolution, he can do wonders for him more than God Himself ever promised: he can, by pronouncing only a few words over him, presently translate him from death to life; and make him, that was all his life before a child of the devil, in one moment the son of God, and an heir of salvation. <br /><br />Let not, therefore, the Church of Rome boast any more of the strictness and severity of her doctrine; and that she especially presseth good works, and the necessity of a holy life; when it is apparent, that by such loose propositions as these, she utterly destroys that necessity. Indeed it may be truly affirmed, that there is no society of Christians in the world, where Antinomianism and libertinism more reign, than among the Papists, into whose very fidth they are interwoven, and men are taught them by the definitions of their Church. It is no wonder so many vicious persons, especially when they come to die, turn Papists, and no visitants are so welcome to them as the Roman Confessors."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19880830501764826552011-04-29T07:58:08.882-04:002011-04-29T07:58:08.882-04:00Hi Viisaus :-)Hi Viisaus :-)John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47831560551700893122011-04-29T07:56:16.882-04:002011-04-29T07:56:16.882-04:00"From my experience, most cultural Catholics ..."From my experience, most cultural Catholics don't think of themselves as living on a sacramental treadmill."<br /><br />Indeed, that is only for those RCs who happen to take their religion SERIOUSLY.<br /><br />Protestant writers long ago observed that Rome makes its religion frustrating and joyless for its pious followers and frivolously all-too-easy for its worldly followers. "Just take care of having a confession before you croak, and pay the rest in the Purgatory!"Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-66125065334171762782011-04-29T06:16:54.124-04:002011-04-29T06:16:54.124-04:00Hi Randall, thanks. You're right, most don'...Hi Randall, thanks. You're right, most don't see it as a "treadmill," and you can even have big gaps, as long as you "get back to confession." That's the key to being "good enough," and not dying in mortal sin. <br /><br />For penance? Don't bother feeding the hungry or clothing the naked. Say those three "Hail Mary's" and you're good.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5378571680083817572011-04-29T05:50:26.881-04:002011-04-29T05:50:26.881-04:00Nice piece. From my experience, most cultural Cath...Nice piece. From my experience, most cultural Catholics don't think of themselves as living on a sacramental treadmill. Rather, they believe God somehow balances their good and bad deeds -- and those with a positive result go to heaven.Randall van der Sterrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08618509337299843429noreply@blogger.com