tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post7262098749247673912..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Thoughts on Modern EvangelicalismRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-3463718408502146212009-11-02T01:24:48.799-05:002009-11-02T01:24:48.799-05:00I like your blog, it's very good!
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Nobody can hope to attend 'each' protestant church, because there are too many. But I have experienced all the major varieties."<BR/><BR/>Then, by your own standards, you shouldn't have made the comments you made about what Protestants allegedly experience. Even when Patrick tells you that he's attended an Eastern Orthodox church, you claim that such an experience isn't enough, yet you want us to believe that you can comment on Protestant experience in general because you've "experienced all the major varieties".<BR/><BR/>You write:<BR/><BR/>"As for your other comments, I don't get it."<BR/><BR/>What's "it"? Am I supposed to rewrite the entirety of the remainder of my post because you make a vague reference to "not getting it"? I don't think that any of those earlier comments need to be rewritten, much less all of them.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71631647898308079922007-05-13T22:33:00.000-04:002007-05-13T22:33:00.000-04:00>You claimed to know what our "Church life" is >"l...>You claimed to know what our "Church life" is <BR/>>"likely" to be, even though you surely haven't <BR/>>attended each of our churches to experience what <BR/>>we've experienced.<BR/><BR/>How do you define "each" of your churches? Nobody can hope to attend "each" protestant church, because there are too many. But I have experienced all the major varieties.<BR/><BR/>As for your other comments, I don't get it.orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89376074231140968922007-05-13T22:28:00.000-04:002007-05-13T22:28:00.000-04:00>So Big O, you went to a Pentacostal church how >m...>So Big O, you went to a Pentacostal church how <BR/>>many times and for how long? Cuz I think to be fair <BR/>>you would have to live among them for some time <BR/>>to really get the experience.<BR/><BR/>Let me see, I would have been to around 10 meetings in a row. I think that's a fair introduction to what's going on.<BR/><BR/>>And if you're willing to go with a Mormon or JW to <BR/>>get their experience, aren't you violating the <BR/>>Scriptural admonition in 2 John 9-11? <BR/><BR/>I don't think so, I'm not "welcoming" them as if I'm happy with their view. But then again I've never been in that situation and had to consider it.<BR/><BR/>>Apparently the apostle Paul didn't think he had <BR/>>to experience the pagan religious experience in <BR/>>Athens in order to criticize it and preach the <BR/>>truth.<BR/><BR/>I have no knowledge of what knowledge and experiences Paul had. Of course we are not discussing pagan experiences, we are talking about Christian experiences. You do consider Orthodox to be Christians or not?orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-40867887954113456512007-05-13T18:33:00.000-04:002007-05-13T18:33:00.000-04:00Thank God there are other Reformed believers out t...Thank God there are other Reformed believers out there who share my concerns. Thanks for posting your thoughts. Unfortunately, Orthodox does not get it. Swapping one anti-intellectual church for another one is not the answer!Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-80737493562778993512007-05-11T18:58:00.000-04:002007-05-11T18:58:00.000-04:00Orthodox writes:"If a group is making specific cla...Orthodox writes:<BR/><BR/>"If a group is making specific claims related to the _experience_ of belonging to that group, and if I wanted to be able to interact with that group on more than a superficial level, then yes I'd like to go find out what they are talking about. That doesn't mean those groups are beyond my criticism until I go do that, but it does mean I wouldn't be fooling myself that I could give a meaningful response to such a person without experiencing it."<BR/><BR/>That's not what you originally said. As you so often do, you've changed your argument in the middle of the discussion. Earlier in this thread, you repeatedly made claims about what Protestants and converts to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy in general <I>experience</I>, even though you surely haven't experienced what all of these people have gone through. You also made claims such as the following:<BR/><BR/>"I know you have lives, and I know what sort of Church life it is likely to be. And I'm saying that many evangelicals have found problems with that kind of experience compared to Orthodoxy."<BR/><BR/>You claimed to know what our "Church life" is "likely" to be, even though you surely haven't attended each of our churches to experience what we've experienced.<BR/><BR/>You also wrote:<BR/><BR/>"How can you say much about Eastern Orthodoxy when you have little conception of life for an Eastern Orthodox Christian? All you can talk about is the perspective from your side of the fence, you can't at all relate to the perspective of our side looking out at you. That's why this style of apologetic is so ineffective in convincing any catholics or orthodox to come your way."<BR/><BR/>You didn't just say that we can't claim to know what it's like to have your experience. Rather, you said that we can't "say much" about <I>Eastern Orthodoxy in general</I>. You then go on to claim that <I>all</I> we can talk about is "our side of the fence". And although in your latest post you say that we can have a "superficial" knowledge of your experiences, in the quote above you say that we can't relate to you "at all". You then go on to refer to "convincing any catholics or orthodox to come your way", which wouldn't be limited to experiencing what they experience. Your latest reformulation of your argument seems to be different from what you said earlier.<BR/><BR/>You write:<BR/><BR/>"As for your other comments, the smiley was there for a reason."<BR/><BR/>You've made similar comments repeatedly. Earlier in this thread, you wrote the following without any emoticons:<BR/><BR/>"I wish I had a dollar for every person who expressed these sentiments and then ended up in Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I'd be a very rich man."Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-24842282981865567162007-05-11T15:29:00.000-04:002007-05-11T15:29:00.000-04:00Orthodox said: "As for your other comments, the sm...Orthodox said: "As for your other comments, the smiley was there for a reason."<BR/><BR/>Ah, the mystery of Eastern Orthodoxy further deepens (or should I say deep ends?). But, alas! Since I lack the requisite <I>gnosis</I>, I cannot plumb its depths. Rather I must content myself to roam no further than the Byzantium shores.Patrick Chanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095377877712197984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71983710936379102342007-05-11T15:21:00.000-04:002007-05-11T15:21:00.000-04:00I said: "So I need to understand what Eastern Orth...I said: "So I need to understand what Eastern Orthodoxy is all about in order to be right about what I've said above, even if it has nothing to do with Eastern Orthodoxy in the first place."<BR/><BR/>Orthodox replied: "Yeah. How can you say much about Eastern Orthodoxy when you have little conception of life for an Eastern Orthodox Christian? All you can talk about is the perspective from your side of the fence, you can't at all relate to the perspective of our side looking out at you. That's why this style of apologetic is so ineffective in convincing any catholics or orthodox to come your way."<BR/><BR/>Notice again what I originally said: "So I need to understand what Eastern Orthodoxy is all about in order to be right about what I've said above, <I>even if it has nothing to do with Eastern Orthodoxy in the first place</I>."<BR/><BR/><B>So</B>! This entire time I've been interacting with Orthodox, I haven't made any claims about Eastern Orthodoxy, yet Orthodox is arguing that I need to know about Eastern Orthodoxy in order to be right about things which have <I>nothing to do with Eastern Orthodoxy in the first place</I>?<BR/><BR/>Wow.<BR/><BR/>Truly, Orthodox's logic is an enigma wrapped up in a puzzle wrapped up in a conundrum! Perhaps Eastern Orthodoxy is mysterious and mystical after all! Far harder to crack than the Da Vinci Code, that's for sure!Patrick Chanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095377877712197984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-46397205672123236842007-05-11T12:59:00.000-04:002007-05-11T12:59:00.000-04:00I wanna see Orthodox experience a Japanese suicide...I wanna see Orthodox experience a Japanese suicide cult so he can speak meaningfully about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-61410659602579401232007-05-11T11:08:00.000-04:002007-05-11T11:08:00.000-04:00So Big O, you went to a Pentacostal church how man...So Big O, you went to a Pentacostal church how many times and for how long? Cuz I think to be fair you would have to live among them for some time to really get the experience. I wouldn't expect you to stop by a revival tent meeting and see a few country folks get slain in the Spirit--then be able to criticize pentacostals you know? And if you're willing to go with a Mormon or JW to get their experience, aren't you violating the Scriptural admonition in 2 John 9-11? Apparently the apostle Paul didn't think he had to experience the pagan religious experience in Athens in order to criticize it and preach the truth. Why do you suppose there is such a great divide between your thinking and his? Kind of odd, isn't it? You being a part of the one true church and all...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18113559424880642522007-05-11T09:45:00.000-04:002007-05-11T09:45:00.000-04:00Jason,If a group is making specific claims related...Jason,<BR/><BR/>If a group is making specific claims related to the _experience_ of belonging to that group, and if I wanted to be able to interact with that group on more than a superficial level, then yes I'd like to go find out what they are talking about. That doesn't mean those groups are beyond my criticism until I go do that, but it does mean I wouldn't be fooling myself that I could give a meaningful response to such a person without experiencing it.<BR/><BR/>In your list of groups above I know certainly that pentacostals make particular claims about their experience, so I have gone and experienced what it is like in their world. I've yet to hear a JW or Mormon present me with an argument from experience, but if ever I do, I may have to go experience it.<BR/><BR/>As for your other comments, the smiley was there for a reason.orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90086910584347032662007-05-11T06:46:00.000-04:002007-05-11T06:46:00.000-04:00Orthodox writes:"How can you say much about Easter...Orthodox writes:<BR/><BR/>"How can you say much about Eastern Orthodoxy when you have little conception of life for an Eastern Orthodox Christian? All you can talk about is the perspective from your side of the fence, you can't at all relate to the perspective of our side looking out at you. That's why this style of apologetic is so ineffective in convincing any catholics or orthodox to come your way."<BR/><BR/>In some earlier discussions we had, you made much of your disagreements with an allegedly "Protestant" church in the Philippines. You initially criticized that church for not practicing communion often enough. You later told us that you think they may hold a non-Trinitarian view of God. Did you attend that church before criticizing it? Did you travel to the Philippines (assuming you don't live there) to experience life as they live it?<BR/><BR/>What about the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Pentecostals, Baptists, and other modern groups you've criticized in some manner? Did you attend each of their churches for a significant amount of time in order to experience what they've experienced, much as you expect Patrick to do with Eastern Orthodoxy?<BR/><BR/>How can you criticize the Montanists, Arians, and other ancient groups without having experienced what they experienced?<BR/><BR/>Also, would you explain how experiencing Eastern Orthodoxy is supposed to clarify the relevant issues for us when it hasn't done so for other Eastern Orthodox? If somebody like Eusebius of Caesarea or Epiphanius could have been Eastern Orthodox, as you've claimed, yet have been wrong on the issues you think they were wrong about, then why should we think that experiencing Eastern Orthodoxy would produce different results for us? Eastern Orthodox continue to disagree with each other about what is Tradition and what isn't. Being Eastern Orthodox doesn't make them correct on such issues. Where, then, do we look for the correct position on such matters? If experiencing Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't lead us to the truth, then how do we find it?<BR/><BR/>You write:<BR/><BR/>"Yep, that's what they all say prior to converting. In fact one might say you're exhibiting all the classic signs"<BR/><BR/>All the people who are about to convert to Mormonism act as if they're not going to. You're showing all the classic signs.<BR/><BR/>All the people who are about to convert to Roman Catholicism act as if they're not going to. You're showing all the classic signs.<BR/><BR/>Etc.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-52654228429017081762007-05-11T03:25:00.000-04:002007-05-11T03:25:00.000-04:00>I'm too familiar with Scripture to leave the >eva...>I'm too familiar with Scripture to leave the <BR/>>evangelical Protestant church for the RCC or the <BR/>>EOC,<BR/><BR/>Yep, that's what they all say prior to converting. In fact one might say you're exhibiting all the classic signs :-)orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-12195177215266056512007-05-11T00:31:00.000-04:002007-05-11T00:31:00.000-04:00Un-Orthodox,I'm too familiar with Scripture to lea...Un-Orthodox,<BR/><BR/>I'm too familiar with Scripture to leave the evangelical Protestant church for the RCC or the EOC, so the only way that would happen is if I started thinking you made sense. Scary, huh?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44762060901263351692007-05-11T00:03:00.000-04:002007-05-11T00:03:00.000-04:00>For the record, I've been to one Orthodox church....>For the record, I've been to one Orthodox church. <BR/>>And, lemme tell ya, once was enough!<BR/><BR/>No, once is not enough. Is once enough for a buddist to come to your church and understand? I think not.<BR/><BR/>>I did, however, see My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I <BR/>>hope that counts for something!<BR/><BR/>You lose points for that admission.<BR/><BR/>>So I need to understand what Eastern Orthodoxy <BR/>>is all about in order to be right about what I've <BR/>>said above, even if it has nothing to do with <BR/>>Eastern Orthodoxy in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Yeah. How can you say much about Eastern Orthodoxy when you have little conception of life for an Eastern Orthodox Christian? All you can talk about is the perspective from your side of the fence, you can't at all relate to the perspective of our side looking out at you. That's why this style of apologetic is so ineffective in convincing any catholics or orthodox to come your way.orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-76954918191230317482007-05-10T23:34:00.000-04:002007-05-10T23:34:00.000-04:00Gene,Ok, so I missed the part where you told me ho...Gene,<BR/><BR/>Ok, so I missed the part where you told me how you define "orthodoxy". I offered the "catholic consensus" understanding, which, by my reading is completely uncontroversial among church historians. Do you dispute this?<BR/><BR/>But more importantly, I'm not interested in your claims that your standards aren't arbitrary; I'm quite sure you believe they are not. So stipulated.<BR/><BR/>But I would like to know what you use to determine what is "orthodox" and what is not.<BR/><BR/>As it is from your last comments, I'm fairly prepared to declare prognosticative victory and say your answer above, nets out to "the *Bible* is my orthodoxy!"<BR/><BR/>Do I have that right from you?<BR/><BR/>If not, what is the criterion you use for orthodoxy?<BR/><BR/>Not a hard question, Gene. Or shouldn't be, anyway.<BR/><BR/>-TouchstoneTouchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23365929008341737762007-05-10T22:33:00.000-04:002007-05-10T22:33:00.000-04:00Whassup Orthodox!For the record, I've been to one ...Whassup Orthodox!<BR/><BR/>For the record, I've been to one Orthodox church. And, lemme tell ya, once was enough!<BR/><BR/>I did, however, see My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I hope that counts for something!<BR/><BR/>Orthodox said: <I>I know I know. But the difference is, I know what goes on in the protestant churches outside of this blog, whereas you don't seem to know what goes on in Orthodoxy. And if you do know, you certainly havn't shown any kind of understanding.</I><BR/><BR/>Snap! I can't refute that. On the one hand, Orthodox tells me I don't know squat about Eastern Orthodoxy and that's why I ain't got no case. But on the other hand, Orthodox tells me that even if I do know, I don't get it. If I do know, it don't show!<BR/><BR/>In other words, I don't understand Eastern Orthodoxy and that's why everything I've said is just plain wrong. As we all know from G.I. Joe, "knowing is half the battle." So I need to understand what Eastern Orthodoxy is all about in order to be right about what I've said above, even if it has nothing to do with Eastern Orthodoxy in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Man, Orthodox, you got me good. You're an Orthodox pox on my house. Fo shizzle.Patrick Chanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095377877712197984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-40701162755525226442007-05-10T22:20:00.000-04:002007-05-10T22:20:00.000-04:00>>Well out with it, then, man! Is Westminster then...>>Well out with it, then, man! Is Westminster then your canon for "Orthodoxy" across the last two millenia? You hold to some Protestant confessional as normative, then think you can claim that the Apostle and Nicene creeds are somehow arbitrary, or gerrymandering???<BR/><BR/>I'm not Presbyterian. My standards are not at all arbitrary. I have exegetical reasons for holding to a confession of faith that includes Sola Fide, and I do not believe only the Reformed confessions are valid for determining a credible profession of faith. The onus is on you to show why the Ancient Creeds are the ones which are "the" ones to hold in order for a person to make a credible profession of faith. I'm simply asking you to make good on your claim. <BR/><BR/>>>It's fine to say "Calvin was right", but let's not play games here and say that Reformation ideals work retroactively for 1500 years and thus now might co-opt the term "Orthodox".<BR/><BR/>Where have I stated "Calvin was right?" The Reformed tradition is not John Calvin. It doesn't help you to show a basic ignorance of the Reformed tradition in that right, but, then church history isn't your strong point, is it? <BR/><BR/>>>As for "adulthood", I don't understand; is the Apostle's Creed something we grow out of, like a pair of jeans that now don't nearly reach our ankles?<BR/><BR/>Unless you really believe the Apostle's Creed came from the Apostle's this is just whistling in the wind for you. That creed is a baptismal creed that was put together over several centuries. You're acting as if that didn't happen. It accreted over time. It isn't a fully orbed confession of faith. It is a basic creed that doesn't address a great deal. Do you even know the difference between a creed and a confession? But let's take the Apostle's Creed, since you mention it. Oneness Pentecostals subscribe to it. Are they Orthodox or not?<BR/><BR/>And why these creeds? If Scripture can't determine orthodoxy, why the creeds? What makes them a proper standard if Scripture isn't? Why not a Protestant confession? Consensus? What consensus? Is Rome today the same as Rome at the time of the ecumenical councils? Was there really an ecumenical consensus at, let's say, Nicea? The Arians took over after Nicea.<BR/><BR/>Appeals to creeds generally go hand in hand with those who appeal to development in doctrine. On the one hand, they want a (post)modernist understanding of doctrine and Scripture, yet they then turn to ancient creeds, but these were formed during the Church's infancy and early childhood, not its adulthood. Those moves pull in opposite directions. Perhaps you should immerse yourself in historiography to understand what I mean. You're always calling for us here to get it together on science, evolutionary theory, etc. Well, Touchstone, get it together on the ways church historians have understood church history and historical theology.GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-347249238237741072007-05-10T21:18:00.000-04:002007-05-10T21:18:00.000-04:00>How do you know we don't have lives outside of >"...>How do you know we don't have lives outside of <BR/>>"hanging out in this blog"?<BR/><BR/>I know you have lives, and I know what sort of Church life it is likely to be. And I'm saying that many evangelicals have found problems with that kind of experience compared to Orthodoxy.<BR/><BR/>>Key word: apologetics. Not missionary. Apologetics.<BR/><BR/>Oh I see, apologetics for its own sake, as an end in itself. Hmm, what's that verse about engaging in useless arguments.<BR/><BR/>>You're not the only one reading the combox, are <BR/>>you?<BR/><BR/>Oh, so OTHER people will be won over by your polemics. Keep on dreaming.<BR/><BR/>>How do you know James White (to take one of <BR/>>your examples) is incapable of reading the <BR/>>Scriptures devotionally?<BR/><BR/>I don't know, and it isn't relevant to what I said. The kind of church that he belongs to are generally much lacking in this practice in comparison to Orthodoxy, and much lacking in teaching the practice. I've been to quite a few services in reformed churches in my life. How many Orthodox services have you attended?<BR/><BR/>>BTW, readers might like to check out Steve's <BR/>>novel Musica Mundana. Dare I say there's some <BR/>>great "devotional" material in there?<BR/><BR/>Well... that's not really what I'm talking about. Have you ever been to an Orthodox service?<BR/><BR/>>Also notice that, on the one hand, Orthodox <BR/>>assumes we study the Bible 24/7.<BR/><BR/>It's not about how much you do or don't study the bible. It's about what you DON'T do that we do do.<BR/><BR/>>Yet if you check the archives, he's on here just as <BR/>>much as some of us are! In fact, I'd venture to <BR/>>guess he's posted in past comboxes here more <BR/>>than I have and with lengthier posts! But <BR/>>somehow we're the ones who are pseudo-<BR/>>intellectual when we post and comment while <BR/>>he's not?<BR/><BR/>I know I know. But the difference is, I know what goes on in the protestant churches outside of this blog, whereas you don't seem to know what goes on in Orthodoxy. And if you do know, you certainly havn't shown any kind of understanding.orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62961830728933972782007-05-10T20:56:00.000-04:002007-05-10T20:56:00.000-04:00>I think you have a false conception of spirituali...>I think you have a false conception of spirituality. <BR/>>Let's crank up those Gregorian chants, build up <BR/>>those great cavernous church edifices, speak Latin, <BR/>>and have some rich spirituality. Pass the mystical <BR/>>wafers man...<BR/><BR/>I wish I had a dollar for every person who expressed these sentiments and then ended up in Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I'd be a very rich man.orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-2304780747661988172007-05-10T20:15:00.001-04:002007-05-10T20:15:00.001-04:00Touchstone said: As for why evolution is central t...Touchstone said: <I>As for why evolution is central to my faith, I'd say that it certainly is not, itself. ... The concern for evolution is really just a commitment to honesty, which I do think is a core virtue for Christians. YEC interpretations of scripture demand either egregious ignorance or egregious dishonesty, given the evidence we have in view. So, for me, it's just a matter-of-fact obligation to acknowledge the facts that can be reliable shown to be facts.</I><BR/><BR/>Au contraire, mon "frère"! <BR/><BR/>Touchstone's basic problem is that, when push comes to shove, he is committed to evolutionism over and against Biblicism. His hermeneutic is (essentially) to read evolution into the Bible rather than letting the Bible speak on its own terms -- as the original author intended the original audience to understand the words. He shoehorns evolution into the text rather than trying to properly exegete the text. <BR/><BR/>In this sense, evolution <I>is</I> indeed central to his "faith."<BR/><BR/>(Surely he'll disagree with my assessment. What else is new? But, of course, those so inclined can browse the archives where we've interacted with Touchstone and draw their own conclusions.)Patrick Chanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095377877712197984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45315367746252012812007-05-10T17:51:00.000-04:002007-05-10T17:51:00.000-04:00Touchstone, biblical literacy certainly hasn't bee...Touchstone, biblical literacy certainly hasn't been the mark of *any* evangelical church that I've been to. Seriously, people hold to some very strange, uninformed views on most issues. <BR/><BR/>As for evangelicals being a bunch of hermitic isolationists living in an anti-social bubble, completely oblivious to the world around them, I find this patronising and offensive. Care to provide any documentation for your claim?<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm wrong, and the Christians in your part of the world show breathtaking biblical literacy, and astounding levels of theological rigor, all the while being as knowledgeable as a prehistoric fanged gorilla would be when it comes to all elements of outside culture. However, all I can go on is my own experience, which is much like Peters', in that many people who go to church are intelligent and talented people (with big teeth) who run a mile if you mention theology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58216642457185508482007-05-10T17:12:00.000-04:002007-05-10T17:12:00.000-04:00KDNY,Fair enough, I responded too harshly and ask ...KDNY,<BR/><BR/>Fair enough, I responded too harshly and ask forgiveness for being uncharitable with your remarks. We are perhaps closer to agreement than I thought from your first comments...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-668081366184893822007-05-10T17:11:00.000-04:002007-05-10T17:11:00.000-04:00Gene,Well out with it, then, man! Is Westminster t...Gene,<BR/><BR/>Well out with it, then, man! Is Westminster then your canon for "Orthodoxy" across the last two millenia? You hold to some Protestant confessional as normative, then think you can claim that the Apostle and Nicene creeds are somehow arbitrary, or gerrymandering???<BR/><BR/>I'm incredulous. That's just nuts, Gene. It's fine to say "Calvin was right", but let's not play games here and say that Reformation ideals work retroactively for 1500 years and thus now might co-opt the term "Orthodox".<BR/><BR/>Give me your formal definition of what "Orthodox" means, and we can go from there.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As for "adulthood", I don't understand; is the Apostle's Creed something we grow out of, like a pair of jeans that now don't nearly reach our ankles? <BR/><BR/>If you don't ascribe to catholic consensus as the standard for orthodoxy in the Christian faith, I can't think what standard you would use. Whence your "ortho"?<BR/><BR/>-Touchstone<BR/><BR/>(just wait for it: "The Bible is *my* orthodoxy!" I called it.)Touchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7502264017982603302007-05-10T17:01:00.000-04:002007-05-10T17:01:00.000-04:00Anonymous,(Pretty sure you are speaking to me here...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>(Pretty sure you are speaking to me here in the comment that begins with the Malachi quote, apologies if not)<BR/><BR/>I don't have hour-by-hour tallies, but I work in science/technology, and I spend time daily in both Bible reading/devotions and reading/writing on theology. I spend a lot of time on email loops I'm on with physicists (I'm not a physicist, but have horned my way in there) who are a blend of Christian and non, so that's "seeking instruction" too, I guess, given all I've been able to learn from that. I think I could fairly say that most days, I am operating on all four levels to one degree or another: a) Bible direct, b) theology, c) science and d) philosophy generally. d) would be the smallest part of the pie. I've had some education in it, but don't find philosophy for philosophy's sake interesting. <BR/><BR/>As for why evolution is central to my faith, I'd say that it certainly is not, itself. If a discovery were announced tomorrow that harkened a new scientific model that eclipsed what we call evolution currently, wouldn't bother me a bit. Einstein took Newton and went one better. Evolution has plenty of "upgradability". <BR/><BR/>The concern for evolution is really just a commitment to honesty, which I do think is a core virtue for Christians. YEC interpretations of scripture demand either egregious ignorance or egregious dishonesty, given the evidence we have in view. So, for me, it's just a matter-of-fact obligation to acknowledge the facts that can be reliable shown to be facts. If "evolutionism" is upgraded to some other "ism" by virtue of new and compelling evidences, I don't fear it a bit as all truth is God's truth, and I'm not prepared to feign ignorance or to engage in a campaign of lies about the facts.<BR/><BR/>From your last two paragraphs, I think I've given you the wrong idea about my views of Evangelicals and intellectualism. I think modern Evangelicalism is thoroughly "intellecutalized", but only in a profoundly parochial way. That's why I keep using the term 'vacuum'. Evangelicals spend an enormous amount of energy and time analyzing and re-anlayzing the scriptures, constantly re-crawling and updating their systematic theologies.<BR/><BR/>But they are stuck in a heuristic -- an epistemological set of axiomata about how to read the Bible, study it, and extract the maximum amount of truth and value out of it -- that is frozen in time as a kind of museum piece of the Enlightenment. The inward-focused intellectual efforts are vigorous, but almost exclusively inward-focused. <BR/><BR/>So, Peter Pike can go on and on about Calvinist shadings of justifcation or the latest thinkings from MacArthur on the noetic effects of the Fall, but ask him about what Christianity means in terms of existin in and ministering to a post-modern culture, and he's a fish out of water. Ask Steve Hays why he thinks man could not have survived in an evolutionary environment, not having the fangs of the Gorilla. I dare ya.<BR/><BR/>That doesn't mean that every evangelical is obligated to be well-versed in every intellectual discipline. But it does mean that at some point, Evangelicalism will have to pull out of the 17th century vaccuum chamber it has locked itself into, intellectually. It's grown terribly atrophied and weak in all the areas it need to be strong in to engage, convert and reify the Kingdom of God in our current culture.<BR/><BR/>So, I hope that's more clear. I don't think Evangelicals are anti-intellectual with respect to scripture. Manifestly the opposite. If anything, the often miss the holistic forest for the reductionist trees they are so aggressively analyzing. The anti-intellectualism should perhaps really be labeled "parochialism" here for better clarity, as Evangelicals are generally *not* against intellectual vigor on principle. Rather, the have hermetically sealed themselves off, and *only* countenance intellectual effort inside the context of the 17th century reformation/modernist hermeneutic. <BR/><BR/>Theological foundationalism uber alles, so to speak.<BR/><BR/>-TouchstoneTouchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.com