tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post7191516567250416672..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: What is grace?Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-63926026462293936832009-03-06T21:35:00.000-05:002009-03-06T21:35:00.000-05:00Jim, Yes, I think it makes sense. Your last para...Jim, Yes, I think it makes sense. Your last paragraph confuses me a bit, but I think I get the gist of it. Thanks for the reply.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89344626231760944192009-03-06T01:33:00.000-05:002009-03-06T01:33:00.000-05:00Lightweight,My examples didn't do it for you? :) "...Lightweight,<BR/><BR/>My examples didn't do it for you? :) "Category mistake" sounds like a close candidate and the concepts overlap in that they may often produce concurrent categories.<BR/><BR/>But I believe you're confusing the logical relationship between theological grace and other things such as works, merit, etc. You may even be mixing variant definitions based on usage. That's why I mentioned it before.<BR/><BR/>It's also a task to phrase definitive arguments in such a way as to engender clarity and help someone embrace categories for analysis they've never before considered. Haggling between people who don't agree on categories and definitions and don't understand that their opponent's understanding is so divergent from their own is a key factor in perhaps 99% (I'm guessing) of debate frustrations. Intelligence is the capacity to ascertain and employ divergent sets of categorizations, whether for the purpose of clarification or obfuscation.<BR/><BR/>As for grace, it always entails unmerited favor whatever the tangential differences in definition coincide with distinctions in usage. Therefore it is rather more descriptive of a general pattern of relational transaction than it is an operator in the transaction although linguistically it has been used objectively to represent the operation or perhaps even the transaction in general.<BR/><BR/>Make sense?Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64859133649129317882009-03-05T19:00:00.000-05:002009-03-05T19:00:00.000-05:00LIGHTWEIGHT SAID:"My thinking is that if God has d...LIGHTWEIGHT SAID:<BR/><BR/>"My thinking is that if God has decreed that justification and good works coexist in His “saving grace,” then it is logically necessary that they coexist. But admittedly, I am probably confused on this issue."<BR/><BR/>Yes, you're confused. If it's contingent on God's will, then it's not logically necessary. <BR/><BR/>More to the point, this is not a question of trying to infer the nature of justification from the nature of good works.<BR/><BR/>You need to start with the teaching of Scripture, not artificial syllogisms.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-13821483127348584212009-03-05T16:23:00.000-05:002009-03-05T16:23:00.000-05:00Jim, I'll need the ballet back by next Wednesday. ...Jim, I'll need the ballet back by next Wednesday. Enjoy it until then.<BR/><BR/>Seriously though, I believe such fallacies might be called "category mistakes." That may be a problem here. Would you mind elaborating on what you mean when you say, "...the use of an objective term in a logical relationship that is inappropriate to its meaning." Thanks.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18757207906955303802009-03-05T13:31:00.000-05:002009-03-05T13:31:00.000-05:00Usage of the word Grace refers to any obvious or a...Usage of the word Grace refers to any obvious or apparent benefit unmerited by the one receiving the benefit. With regard to Christian theology, specifying salvific or common grace helps us distinguish between gracious patterns covered by scripture, whether with regard to justification (or even sanctification) or the capacity of good to be worked through the unregenerate.<BR/><BR/>There's perhaps a logical fallacy that I've never considered before, and that's the use of an objective term in a logical relationship that is inappropriate to its meaning.<BR/><BR/>For example, I wouldn't say that "I borrowed the ballet today. If you need it back I'll bring it by after work."<BR/><BR/>Or, "I'm preparing my thoughts for the symposium in a few weeks. I'll need to freeze them so they'll keep and thaw them out a day before."<BR/><BR/>It seems less ridiculous to misconstrue the logical relationships between theological terms by confusing similar ideas, but it is no more logical to do so.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-55360894726190590902009-03-05T10:16:00.000-05:002009-03-05T10:16:00.000-05:00Jugulum: Hmm... The ambiguity may also be in "rel...Jugulum: Hmm... The ambiguity may also be in "relationship". The relationship isn't directly between good works and justification--they both have a relationship to something else.<BR/><BR/>lightweight: Yes, that may also be the case. But even though two concepts may be related to something else, I see no reason why they can’t somehow be directly related to each other. If neither justification nor good works exist without the other in God’s “saving grace,” then it seems to me that they are somehow directly related.<BR/><BR/>I guess I’m thinking of it like this: If justification exists, then good works exist. Logically the consequent (good works exist) is the “necessary condition.” In a similar way: If I cross the river, then I use a boat. Using a boat is the necessary condition of crossing the river.<BR/><BR/>But again, there is ambiguity with regards to the concept of “necessary condition.” Furthermore, I’m still trying to think through Steve’s statement, “It is not logically or causally necessary that justification and sanctification coexist. That’s a contingent truth, due to God’s will.” My thinking is that if God has decreed that justification and good works coexist in His “saving grace,” then it is logically necessary that they coexist. But admittedly, I am probably confused on this issue.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-56066430377720785132009-03-04T13:52:00.000-05:002009-03-04T13:52:00.000-05:00Lightweight,"I think that standard logic textbooks...Lightweight,<BR/><BR/>"I think that standard logic textbooks say that if a relationship is biconditional,then the terms are sufficient and necessary conditions of each other. But I think there is some ambiguity with reference to these terms."<BR/><BR/>Hmm... The ambiguity may also be in "relationship". The relationship isn't directly between good works and justification--they both have a relationship to something else.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32880211328852226982009-03-04T12:33:00.000-05:002009-03-04T12:33:00.000-05:00Jugulum, Thanks for the feedback. You wrote, &quo...Jugulum, Thanks for the feedback. You wrote, "Steve and S&S are not accepting the phrase 'necessary condition', because they're stressing that G is not a pre-condition for J."<BR/><BR/>Yes, I think that is probably the case. I think my confusion is caused, in part, by the ambiguity of the expression "necessary condition." <BR/><BR/>I think that standard logic textbooks say that if a relationship is biconditional,then the terms are sufficient and necessary conditions of each other. But I think there is some ambiguity with reference to these terms.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-91044217141378360392009-03-03T23:33:00.000-05:002009-03-03T23:33:00.000-05:00P.S.I said this:"Steve and S&S are not ac...P.S.<BR/><BR/>I said this:<BR/><BR/>"Steve and S&S are not accepting the phrase "necessary condition", because they're stressing that G is not a <I>pre</I>-condition for J."<BR/><BR/>I would guess that they're also stressing that G is not a condition for <I>keeping</I> J.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-27473087154545929312009-03-03T16:39:00.000-05:002009-03-03T16:39:00.000-05:00Precondition == ground, in this case.To put it in ...Precondition == ground, in this case.<BR/><BR/>To put it in pseudo-programming terms:<BR/><BR/>bool human::Justify () {<BR/> human H = this;<BR/> if (H.Faith) return H.Right_Standing = true;<BR/> else return H.Right_Standing = false;<BR/> }<BR/><BR/>int human::Sanctify () {<BR/> human H = this;<BR/> if (H.Faith) return H.Pure_Desire_To_Work++;<BR/> else return 0;<BR/> }<BR/><BR/>In the default constructor for a human, both H.Pure_Desire_To_Work and H.Faith equal 0. The above functions will return 0 or false, unless Faith has been set. This requires the following function to have been called:<BR/><BR/>void human::Regenerate (grace G) {<BR/> human H = this;<BR/> if (G.Applier==Holy_Spirit) H.Faith ++;<BR/> }<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, the compiler would throw an error if either the Justify() or Sanctify() function were used without also using the other.<BR/><BR/>(It could also be noted that Faith should be named Faith_In_Christ. But, like a parable, this was not intended to capture all dimensions of the situation.)Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-40943286388236127842009-03-03T16:22:00.000-05:002009-03-03T16:22:00.000-05:00My take on this exchange: Lightweight is using th...My take on this exchange: <BR/><BR/>Lightweight is using the phrase "necessary condition" to mean "litmus test for the presence of". ("If !G, then !J. If true G, then J.") This works because if God justifies you, he will sanctify you.<BR/><BR/>Steve and S&S are not accepting the phrase "necessary condition", because they're stressing that G is not a <I>pre</I>-condition for J.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89953489638914679882009-03-03T14:59:00.000-05:002009-03-03T14:59:00.000-05:00THE DUDE SAID:“I could not tell if you view sancti...THE DUDE SAID:<BR/><BR/>“I could not tell if you view sanctification as synergistic in contrast to justification, but presuming you do, in that one can resist or cooperate with grace (cooperation itself being an effect of grace) in performing good works, would you say one who does (and continues to) cooperate in some sense predisposes himself to cooperating with grace more and more (progressive sanctification)?” <BR/><BR/>i) You’re treating “cooperation” and “synergism” as if these were synonymous. While, at the level of ordinarily language, they may be synonymous (as Greek and Latin synonyms), they are not synonymous in theological usage. “Synergism” is a technical term in Catholic theology, with a specialized meaning. <BR/><BR/>ii) Yes, sanctification involves an element of cooperation. That doesn’t make it synergistic in the dogmatic sense of the term.<BR/><BR/>iii) Up to a point, sanctification is resistible. However, it is God’s will that his people be sanctified. So while there are degrees of sanctity, which vary from one Christian to another, no true believer is devoid of sanctity. Sanctification is still inevitable. <BR/><BR/>iv) Even if we’re uncooperative, God will use that to refine us (e.g. remedial punishment).<BR/><BR/>v) I also don’t think of grace as an objective, quantifiable commodity, such that we receive larger or smaller doses of grace–like using up the first batch, then receiving the next batch. That’s getting carried away with a picturesque metaphor.<BR/><BR/>“Or, another way, if prayer and sacraments are means of grace (not in the sense of RC/EO of course), the believer who engages in those acts seems to be ‘meriting’ grace in some sense.”<BR/><BR/>i) Why do you cast this in terms of “merit”? There’s nothing meritorious about doing what I’m supposed to do, or refrain from doing.<BR/><BR/>Is it meritorious that I don’t rob little old ladies of their life savings? Do I deserve a civic reward because I restrain myself from robbing little old ladies? <BR/><BR/>ii) And God sanctifies us, not because we merit sanctifying grace, but because we need it. <BR/><BR/>“Otherwise, it would seem there is no growth in holiness, it's always square one.”<BR/><BR/>There’s no logical connection between growing in holiness and “meriting* sanctifying grace. While progressive sanctification requires sanctifying grace, there’s no good reason to make that contingent on the meritoriousness of the Christian. Indeed, the need of Christians to undergo a process of sanctification points to their lack of merit. To their demerit. They are sinners. That’s why they need to undergo sanctification.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62063929894626298882009-03-03T14:36:00.000-05:002009-03-03T14:36:00.000-05:00LIGHTWEIGHT SAID:“Steve, I appreciate your generos...LIGHTWEIGHT SAID:<BR/><BR/>“Steve, I appreciate your generosity in sharing your time by fielding questions from readers of your blog posts. I reread your ‘Pelagian Calvinism’ post last evening, but how you addressed my previous question about good works being a necessary condition of justification in your reply to Perry has eluded me (I suspect, however, it has something to do with your mention of the different dimensions of saving grace and my committing some sort of a level confusion).” <BR/><BR/>Justification is the possession and/or imputation (as the case may be) of a righteous standing. In the case of sinners, good works cannot be a necessary condition of justification since the sinner cannot be personally righteousness, as Paul defines it. (ditto: James).<BR/><BR/>As I said in reply to Perry:<BR/><BR/>As for “righteousness,” Reformed theology uses this term in the Pauline sense, where it denotes moral perfection. The holiness of God sets the standard.<BR/><BR/>(Incidentally, James has the same concept. If you transgress a single commandment, you’re guilty of the whole nine yards.)<BR/><BR/>As such, an actually righteous person always does right. Righteousness, in Pauline usage, does not admit degrees of righteousness. So, by definition, a sinner cannot be actually righteous. <BR/><BR/>However, a righteous standing can be imputed to a sinner via the righteousness of a second-party (Christ).<BR/><BR/>“I suppose my thinking is along these lines:__1) salvation exists if and only if justification exists_2) good works exist if and only salvation exists_3) therefore, justification exists if and only if good works exist__I believe 3 follows logically from 1 and 2, in which case it seems that good works are a necessary condition of justification.”<BR/><BR/>i) One problem with your syllogism is that it suffers from a chronological equivocation inasmuch as justification is prior to good works. <BR/><BR/>ii) The fact that two things necessarily coexist doesn’t entail that one is the necessary condition of the other. For example, two things can be the inevitable effect of a common cause. One effect is not the cause of the other effect–even though both effects always occur in tandem. <BR/><BR/>iii) It is not logically or causally necessary that justification and sanctification coexist. That’s a contingent truth, due to God’s will. <BR/><BR/>iv) And even if necessary coexistence did entail that one was the necessary condition of the other, that fact doesn’t indicate which is which. It doesn’t furnish the direction of the conditionality.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47711975276158755082009-03-03T13:28:00.000-05:002009-03-03T13:28:00.000-05:00Saint and Sinner, Thanks for the reply. I’m not ...Saint and Sinner, Thanks for the reply. I’m not sure how one can say something is “totally separate” and also say “God never does one without also doing the other.” Since God never does one without the other, I think it would be safer to say that I am assuming (using your designations above):<BR/><BR/>J<-->S<-->G<BR/><BR/>If this is an accurate representation of “saving grace,” I think one can logically conclude that good works are a necessary condition of justification. I am not saying that good works are the cause of justification; only that they are a necessary condition. But, once again, I remain open to the possibility that I am misunderstanding something here.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50885471206316508862009-03-03T10:39:00.000-05:002009-03-03T10:39:00.000-05:00Lightweight said: "but how you addressed my p...Lightweight said: <BR/>"but how you addressed my previous question about good works being a necessary condition of justification in your reply to Perry has eluded me"<BR/><BR/>Me:<BR/>S=Salvation<BR/>J=Justification<BR/>G=Good Works<BR/><BR/>I believe that you are assuming this:<BR/><BR/>G--->J--->S<BR/><BR/>The Biblical theology of salvation, though, is thus:<BR/><BR/>S--->J&G<BR/><BR/>When God saves us, He does two main things, regeneration and justification. One is subjective and the other objective. Regeneration necessariliy results in good works and justification is the declaration of innocence. They are two totally separate acts of salvation (and thus one does not cause the other), but God never does one without also doing the other.<BR/><BR/>Thus, we can say that one cannot be saved without producing good works without saying that good works are the cause of justification (or salvation as a whole).Saint and Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14166699860672840738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-91262600505934589432009-03-03T09:55:00.000-05:002009-03-03T09:55:00.000-05:00Steve, I appreciate your generosity in sharing you...Steve, I appreciate your generosity in sharing your time by fielding questions from readers of your blog posts. I reread your “Pelagian Calvinism” post last evening, but how you addressed my previous question about good works being a necessary condition of justification in your reply to Perry has eluded me (I suspect, however, it has something to do with your mention of the different dimensions of saving grace and my committing some sort of a level confusion). <BR/><BR/>I suppose my thinking is along these lines:<BR/><BR/>1) salvation exists if and only if justification exists<BR/>2) good works exist if and only salvation exists<BR/>3) therefore, justification exists if and only if good works exist<BR/><BR/>I believe 3 follows logically from 1 and 2, in which case it seems that good works are a necessary condition of justification. Would you mind setting me straight here? Thanks.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-25160754094130541422009-03-02T23:01:00.000-05:002009-03-02T23:01:00.000-05:00"You’re reversing the order of cause and effect. G..."You’re reversing the order of cause and effect. Good works don’t result in sanctification. Rather, good works result from santification."<BR/>"In Scripture, good works are not meritorious. Our good works don’t merit the grace of God. Apart from God’s grace, we have no good works."<BR/><BR/>Right, God crowns nothing but His own gifts. I could not tell if you view sanctification as synergistic in contrast to justification, but presuming you do, in that one can resist or cooperate with grace (cooperation itself being an effect of grace) in performing good works, would you say one who does (and continues to) cooperate in some sense predisposes himself to cooperating with grace more and more (progressive sanctification)? Or, another way, if prayer and sacraments are means of grace (not in the sense of RC/EO of course), the believer who engages in those acts seems to be "meriting" grace in some sense. Otherwise, it would seem there is no growth in holiness, it's always square one. Or, perhaps "merit" should not be used when one is speaking of "accepting" or "cooperating with/not resisting" grace and you mean it in a strict sense of earning as payment.The Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00211478133160497647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-21197227170084590592009-03-02T14:43:00.000-05:002009-03-02T14:43:00.000-05:00lightweight said..."I’m understanding your compari...lightweight said...<BR/><BR/>"I’m understanding your comparison as saying: to say that justification and good works are necessary for salvation doesn’t mean that justification is necessary for good works. Is that how you are meaning your comparison?"<BR/><BR/>The reverse: good works are unnecessary for justification.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-85919566269334902542009-03-02T14:41:00.000-05:002009-03-02T14:41:00.000-05:00LIGHTWEIGHT SAID:Steve, You wrote, "I already disc...LIGHTWEIGHT SAID:<BR/>Steve, You wrote, "I already discussed why that is not possible in my reply to Perry Robinson."<BR/><BR/>Are you referring to your post "Pelagian Calvinism"?<BR/><BR/>******************************<BR/><BR/>Correct.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-17952225292648739802009-03-02T13:10:00.001-05:002009-03-02T13:10:00.001-05:00"What is the “work” of a missionary or evangelist ..."What is the “work” of a missionary or evangelist that could be burned up?"<BR/><BR/>These would be works done "from selfish ambition" (Phil. 1:16;2:3) I would think.<BR/><BR/>I also think that the wood, hay, and straw surely could apply to me as well, though I'm not an apostle or evangelist.<BR/><BR/>I know that as Paul says here in the context of this passage, that "according to the grace of God which was given to me", I too will have reward when I labor for the kingdom in His grace alone. <BR/><BR/>Yet, all that I do that I am obliged to do, I am an unprofitable servant. <BR/><BR/>And all I do in conceit and selfish ambition will be burned up. <BR/><BR/>But all that I do for Christ sacrificially, will be precious stones upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Though never without His grace, power, and love could I in any possible way accomplish a good work for the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ and God our Father.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-49017279918671564002009-03-02T13:10:00.000-05:002009-03-02T13:10:00.000-05:00Steve, You wrote, “You're also committing a level ...Steve, You wrote, “You're also committing a level confusion: to say that food and oxygen are necessary to stay alive doesn't mean that food is necessary for oxygen.”<BR/><BR/>I’m understanding your comparison as saying: to say that justification and good works are necessary for salvation doesn’t mean that justification is necessary for good works. Is that how you are meaning your comparison?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-83979342292437305932009-03-02T12:55:00.000-05:002009-03-02T12:55:00.000-05:00Steve, You wrote, "I already discussed why that is...Steve, You wrote, "I already discussed why that is not possible in my reply to Perry Robinson."<BR/><BR/>Are you referring to your post "Pelagian Calvinism"?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71219503528395434052009-03-02T11:47:00.000-05:002009-03-02T11:47:00.000-05:00beowulf2k8 said...“Noah found grace in the eyes of...beowulf2k8 said...<BR/><BR/>“Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (Gen 6:8) What was it? (1) Mercy (2) A plan by which he could be saved.”<BR/><BR/>A blatant equivocation of terms. You’re not even attempting to be honest. Noah found “favor” with God, as a result of which he was “delivered” from “death.”<BR/><BR/>That is not the same thing as “saving grace.”stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-63288348267038681142009-03-02T11:44:00.000-05:002009-03-02T11:44:00.000-05:00LIGHTWEIGHT SAID:"Wouldn’t good works be a necessa...LIGHTWEIGHT SAID:<BR/><BR/>"Wouldn’t good works be a necessary condition for our justification as well (in the same way they are a necessary condition for our salvation) since there is justification if and only if there is salvation?"<BR/><BR/>I already discussed why that is not possible in my reply to Perry Robinson.<BR/><BR/>You're also committing a level confusion: to say that food and oxygen are necessary to stay alive doesn't mean that food is necessary for oxygen.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-812800433091456682009-03-02T11:36:00.000-05:002009-03-02T11:36:00.000-05:00Steve, You wrote, “Good works are a necessary cond...Steve, You wrote, “Good works are a necessary condition of our salvation, but they contribute nothing to our justification.” Wouldn’t good works be a necessary condition for our justification as well (in the same way they are a necessary condition for our salvation) since there is justification if and only if there is salvation?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.com