tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post70630118411948148..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Living and dyingRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-2875895691668963132010-11-22T09:58:50.482-05:002010-11-22T09:58:50.482-05:00ENCHANTED NATURALIST SAID:
“Evolution is goal-ori...ENCHANTED NATURALIST SAID:<br /><br />“Evolution is goal-oriented: survival.”<br /><br />That reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of naturalistic evolution. A mindless process can’t set goals for itself. Only a conscious, intelligent agent can do that. But like many naïve Darwinians, you’ve been fooled by the teleological language which evolutionary biologists must (inconsistently) resort to to explain evolution.<br /><br />“I'm my own rational agent.”<br /><br />A blindly-programmed rational agent.<br /><br />“It's truly amazing to see the transformation of your argument, Steve.”<br /><br />To the contrary, I’ve been responding to the twists and turns you own argument has taken as you keep reinventing your failed objection.<br /><br />“You failed to demonstrate the rationality of that assertion…”<br /><br />You merely assert that I failed to demonstrate the claim.<br /><br />“...by adding that the meaning I ascribe to my own existence is illusory because my feelings have been influenced by external factors (evolution).”<br /><br />No, now you’re substituting a different claim. As I made explicit, the issue wasn’t the influence of merely external factors, but the fact that your feelings are the product of a mindless process. Not just *any* type of external factor, but a mindless factor. <br /><br />“When I demonstrated that under those conditions even theistic significance would be illusory because you've similarly been influenced by God, you now insist that it's different because God's divine programming is part of a "goal-oriented process" originating from an external rational agent. So you now invoke special pleading and move the goal posts yet again by completely redefining significance in theistic terms, which has no bearing on your original assertion, namely that significance is internally incoherent in the atheistic worldview.”<br /><br />You’re the one who attempted the comparison. Therefore, I’m responding to you on your own terms. To say your feelings of the significance are the end-result of a mindless process is hardly equivalent to the claim that your feelings of significance are the end-result of a rational, purposeful process. The effect is different because the cause is different. Try not to be a simpleton.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15717627401404993532010-11-21T15:22:38.236-05:002010-11-21T15:22:38.236-05:00Steve said:
That doesn't get you where you ne...Steve said:<br /><br /><i>That doesn't get you where you need to go. If a rational agent (your divine Creator) has designed you to ascribe significance to your existence, that's not an illusory projection of significance. Rather, that's grounded in an truly goal-oriented process.</i><br /><br />Evolution is goal-oriented: survival. And what does an <i>external</i> rational agent add to the equation? I'm my own rational agent.<br /><br />It's truly amazing to see the transformation of your argument, Steve. Go back and read your original post. You asked the question: "What does a human death signify <i>in atheism</i>?" (emphasis mine), and you answered that it signifies nothing because <i>in atheism</i> death is ultimate. You failed to demonstrate the rationality of that assertion, so you then moved the goal posts by adding that the meaning I ascribe to my own existence is illusory because my feelings have been influenced by external factors (evolution). When I demonstrated that under those conditions even theistic significance would be illusory because you've similarly been influenced by God, you now insist that it's <i>different</i> because God's divine programming is part of a "goal-oriented process" originating from an external rational agent. So you now invoke special pleading and move the goal posts yet again by completely redefining significance in theistic terms, which has no bearing on your original assertion, namely that significance is <i>internally incoherent</i> in the atheistic worldview.Enchanted Naturalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11745212209361114578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-88361111672820143042010-11-20T11:03:58.385-05:002010-11-20T11:03:58.385-05:00Enchanted Naturalist said...
"When I say &qu...Enchanted Naturalist said...<br /><br />"When I say "mindless" I mean "non-human-mindless": something beyond our human control that might be said to dictate our human condition. In this sense my analogy is appropriate."<br /><br />That doesn't get you where you need to go. If a rational agent (your divine Creator) has designed you to ascribe significance to your existence, that's not an illusory projection of significance. Rather, that's grounded in an truly goal-oriented process.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14453124254556117192010-11-20T09:56:21.846-05:002010-11-20T09:56:21.846-05:00Steve said:
So, no, you can't validly compare...Steve said:<br /><br /><i>So, no, you can't validly compare a mindless, undirected factor like naturalistic evolution to an intelligent, purposeful factor like divine creation, predestination, or providence. Your attempted analogy is fatally equivocal.</i><br /><br />When I say "mindless" I mean "non-human-mindless": something beyond our human control that might be said to dictate our human condition. In this sense my analogy is appropriate.Enchanted Naturalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11745212209361114578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69502885969059905582010-11-20T09:44:55.324-05:002010-11-20T09:44:55.324-05:00ENCHANTED NATURALIST SAID:
"Of course, the n...ENCHANTED NATURALIST SAID:<br /><br />"Of course, the non-elect, god-glorification machines you sentimentally call your 'wife and daughter' have also been conditioned by the same mindless god-programming process to ascribe god-glorification significance to your existence."<br /><br />God is not the blind watchmaker. God is the sighted watchmaker. The farsighted watchmaker. The omniscient watchmaker. <br /><br />So, no, you can't validly compare a mindless, undirected factor like naturalistic evolution to an intelligent, purposeful factor like divine creation, predestination, or providence. Your attempted analogy is fatally equivocal.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-83665826462505703262010-11-20T08:00:29.308-05:002010-11-20T08:00:29.308-05:00Peter Pike said:
Why would you bother leaving a s...Peter Pike said:<br /><br /><i>Why would you bother leaving a suicide note in the first place? You've defined meaning as meaning *FOR YOU*, and if you're dead, then there's no meaning.</i><br /><br />Meaning for me is almost exclusively based on my relationships with friends and loved ones, so why wouldn't I want to say goodbye? There's no contradiction there.<br /><br />Steve said:<br /><br /><i>Of course, the survival machines you sentimentally call your "wife and daughter" have also been conditioned by the same mindless evolutionary process to ascribe illusory significance to your existence.</i><br /><br />And your version?:<br /><br />"Of course, the non-elect, god-glorification machines you sentimentally call your 'wife and daughter' have also been conditioned by the same mindless god-programming process to ascribe god-glorification significance to your existence."<br /><br />Steve said:<br /><br />"When you get so defensive about a post that wasn't even directed at you personally...then that reaction confirms your state of denial. Thanks for the grudging corroboration."<br /><br />Was Loftus, et al's "The Christian Delusion" directed at <i>you</i> personally? Again you demonstrate that you have no tolerance for any form of criticism or debate except when it originates from yourself.<br /><br />Mr. Fosi said:<br /><br /><i>I confess, however, that I still don't see why anyone should/would spend time spreading the view that their life has a existential and subjective meaning to them.</i><br /><br />There's a difference between spreading and discrediting. Because people like Steve spend time spreading the view that my life can have no meaning I feel compelled to expose his sophistry.Enchanted Naturalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11745212209361114578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-85479242739663303482010-11-19T09:06:47.772-05:002010-11-19T09:06:47.772-05:00It's interesting to see the comments/commentat...It's interesting to see the comments/commentators you see on these posts about death.<br /><br />I confess, however, that I still don't see why anyone should/would spend time spreading the view that their life has a existential and subjective meaning to them.Mr. Fosihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652392944938128012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-79559919469700428142010-11-18T21:20:31.732-05:002010-11-18T21:20:31.732-05:00Coram Deo said "And I wonder where they got t...Coram Deo said <i>"And I wonder where they got the idea from..."</i><br /><br />Ryan Anderson replied:<br /><i>See my original comment.</i><br /><br />Oh that's right, you projected your wishful thinking meme upon them.<br /><br />cue Disney music <i>...makes no difference who you are...</i><br /><br />In Him,<br />CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-17955482085369316622010-11-18T17:27:10.522-05:002010-11-18T17:27:10.522-05:00Hello:
For those interested -- Keith Ward's w...Hello:<br /><br />For those interested -- Keith Ward's witty and insightful demolition of the position of Richard Dawkins in trying to disprove God's existence is a wonderful read.<br /><br />Title -- Why there almost certainly is a God.<br /><br />Here is a link to a review --<br />http://www.iscast.org/journal/book_reviews/Garth_J_2009-05_Ward_Review.pdf<br /><br />He is not Reformed but don't hold that against him.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-46422507529645710862010-11-18T16:33:35.637-05:002010-11-18T16:33:35.637-05:00It is written:
"In other words your theology...It is written:<br /><br />"In other words your theology provides an adequate explanation to you for my self-delusion as to the meaning of my life. Congratulations. This bears no relation to the specific assertion in the original post, namely that meaning is somehow contingent upon eternity."<br /><br />Definition of contingent:<br /><br />adj.<br />1. Liable to occur but not with certainty; possible: "All salaries are reckoned on contingent as well as on actual services" (Ralph Waldo Emerson).<br />2. Dependent on conditions or occurrences not yet established; conditional: arms sales contingent on the approval of Congress. See Synonyms at dependent.<br />3. Happening by chance or accident; fortuitous. See Synonyms at accidental.<br />4. Logic True only under certain conditions; not necessarily or universally true: a contingent proposition.<br />n.<br />1. An event or condition that is likely but not inevitable.<br />2. A share or quota, as of troops, contributed to a general effort.<br />3. A representative group forming part of an assemblage.<br /><br /><br />Begging the pardon of those involved but I don't see where the point made misses the point in the Post.<br /><br />If meaning in this life is somehow contingent upon eternity then the necessity of a relationship to Christ, apart from me you are nothing and accomplish nothing, bears it seems on the discussion.<br /><br />And the viewpoint that someone cannot see their need of this until the Spirit brings them to see their need of this -- bears it seems on the discussion.<br /><br />With no life beyond this life, a consistent world view demands it seems nihilism in its starkest outworking of the implications.<br /><br />The fact many cannot adhere to this points to factors that describe how we cannot live without the idea of hope.<br /><br />But where is hope most fully realized? Not in atheism because it cannot inspire one to hope. <br /><br />For me it is realized in the idea of a Being which is pure consciousness who has brought all things into being for the sake of goodness and His being is not contingent in any way on what we do.<br /><br />My life has an immense meaning in the One who made this creation and placed me in it and died to redeem this creation and myself. If someone finds this life alone meaningful I grant them that right. But what bears on their realization just might be a wrong headed view, a delusional view of reality. A view that the person is aware and still lives in opposition to God. <br /><br />That to me is not inspiring.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14819442158660749942010-11-18T16:27:58.748-05:002010-11-18T16:27:58.748-05:00ENCHANTEDNATURALIST.COM SAID:
"Let me borrow...ENCHANTEDNATURALIST.COM SAID:<br /><br />"Let me borrow one from your book: simply asserting that I'm in a state of denial doesn't make it so."<br /><br />When you get so defensive about a post that wasn't even directed at you personally, a post, what is more, that merely draws attention to the logical ramifications of your own worldview, then that reaction confirms your state of denial. Thanks for the grudging corroboration. <br /><br />It's hard to be a disenchanted naturalist, but someone had to break the fairy spell you were under.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26224816112495873192010-11-18T16:24:51.938-05:002010-11-18T16:24:51.938-05:00Living and dying
Made better with humor and laugh...<b>Living and dying</b><br /><br />Made better with humor and laughter. Eg., <br /><br />"The fact that you would wish to leave a [suicide] note proves that you assume meaning extends beyond yourself. In other words, you steal from theistic worldviews, and refute your own position, by everything you do."<br /><br />and<br /><br />"For natural selection has blindly programmed you to project meaning to your meaningless existence."<br /><br />ROFLOL!!Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32436987914572842092010-11-18T16:20:02.764-05:002010-11-18T16:20:02.764-05:00ENCHANTEDNATURALIST.COM SAID:
“My life is meaning...ENCHANTEDNATURALIST.COM SAID:<br /><br />“My life is meaningful to me right now.”<br /><br />We'd expect you to feel that way. For natural selection has blindly programmed you to project meaning to your meaningless existence.<br /><br />"C'mon, Steve--I'm waiting for the actual argument for why I should speed up the natural process and commit suicide. My wife and daughter are waiting too."<br /><br />Of course, the survival machines you sentimentally call your "wife and daughter" have also been conditioned by the same mindless evolutionary process to ascribe illusory significance to your existence. That's the way the blind watchmaker tricks you into perpetuating your species.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-78355531096286095122010-11-18T14:05:06.522-05:002010-11-18T14:05:06.522-05:00Why would you bother leaving a suicide note in the...Why would you bother leaving a suicide note in the first place? You've defined meaning as meaning *FOR YOU*, and if you're dead, then there's no meaning. Thus, no reason to leave behind a note at all.<br /><br />That's the problem with manufactured meaning. It's only as good as the manufacturer. The fact that you would wish to leave a note proves that you assume meaning extends beyond yourself. In other words, you steal from theistic worldviews, and refute your own position, by everything you do.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-40005000262575767222010-11-18T13:53:39.519-05:002010-11-18T13:53:39.519-05:00Steve said:
To assert that [my argument is] juven...Steve said:<br /><br /><i>To assert that [my argument is] juvenile doesn’t make it juvenile.</i><br /><br />Yes indeed, but demonstrating that it's illogical certainly does. And I did.<br /><br /><i>Like I said, infidels are in a state of denial. Thanks for proving my point...In other words, you can simply pretend your life is meaningful.</i><br /><br />Let me borrow one from your book: simply asserting that I'm in a state of denial doesn't make it so. Simply asserting that I pretend my life is meaningful doesn't make it so.<br /><br />C'mon, Steve--I'm waiting for the actual argument for why I should speed up the natural process and commit suicide. My wife and daughter are waiting too. Maybe I'll save them the trouble and just take them down with me. I'll include your irrefutable logic in my murder-suicide note so that everyone understands clearly why I did it. There won't be any question or confusion about my actions since I will merely be acting in absolute consistency with my worldview. I will have discovered the incontrovertible truth about my life's inherent meaningless based on its finitude.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67335324151478126002010-11-18T10:36:44.891-05:002010-11-18T10:36:44.891-05:00Hays writes:
Likewise, it would be nice to travel...Hays writes:<br /><br /><i>Likewise, it would be nice to travel back in time and do some things differently with the benefit of hindsight. But I haven't concocted a theology of time travel to satisfy that desire.</i><br /><br />Yes, this is quite high on my list of desires given hindsight. I suspect it is the case for many Christians as they mature in the faith and understand the extent of their sin. Yet few (none?) are willing to therefore recreate God.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784922935749497931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8508550098220110562010-11-18T09:57:40.353-05:002010-11-18T09:57:40.353-05:00ENCHANTEDNATURALIST.COM SAID:
“This ‘argument’ fr...ENCHANTEDNATURALIST.COM SAID:<br /><br />“This ‘argument’ from finitude is a juvenile canard. “<br /><br />To assert that it’s juvenile doesn’t make it juvenile. <br /><br />“My life is meaningful to me right now.”<br /><br />Like I said, infidels are in a state of denial. Thanks for proving my point.<br /><br />“Who can refute that? Who is asserting any more or less than that?”<br /><br />In other words, you can simply pretend your life is meaningful.<br /><br />“You tell us--if Christianity isn't wish fulfillment, what do you personally wish for, Steve, that it leaves unfulfilled?”<br /><br />If it were wish fulfillment, I’d concoct a theological system which ensures the salvation of all my loved ones. But as it stands, I can only pray.<br /><br />Likewise, it would be nice to travel back in time and do some things differently with the benefit of hindsight. But I haven't concocted a theology of time travel to satisfy that desire. <br /><br />“I doubt you wish away hell because it's abundantly clear how much you enjoy condemning people.”<br /><br />You’re pretty condemnatory yourself. Do you believe in hell?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-46780973614682911102010-11-18T09:35:15.928-05:002010-11-18T09:35:15.928-05:00Grev said:
A Christian view of the person posits ...Grev said:<br /><br /><i>A Christian view of the person posits that a person outside of Christ, lives in denial regarding their true condition. So, it follows that the person can see their life is meaningful.</i><br /><br />In other words your theology provides an adequate explanation to you for my self-delusion as to the meaning of my life. Congratulations. This bears no relation to the specific assertion in the original post, namely that meaning is somehow contingent upon eternity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-57867352246980967382010-11-18T06:43:02.062-05:002010-11-18T06:43:02.062-05:00It is written:
"This "argument" fr...It is written:<br /><br />"This "argument" from finitude is a juvenile canard. My life is meaningful to me right now. Who can refute that? Who is asserting any more or less than that?"<br /><br />I would expect that a person would want to claim that their life is meaningful. You need to get up every morning and live and it would be pretty hard to do so if you were not inspired to do so.<br /><br />That is one reason among many why atheism falls so flat for me, it is totally uninspiring.<br /><br />So you see meaning.<br /><br />What does that prove?<br /><br />A Christian view of the person posits that a person outside of Christ, lives in denial regarding their true condition. So, it follows that the person can see their life is meaningful.<br /><br />Only the action of the Spirit of God, causes us to see our true condition and thus then understand the warning of Christ, that apart from me your life shall amount to nothing.<br /><br />ShalomGREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-57509523673921046422010-11-18T06:26:08.680-05:002010-11-18T06:26:08.680-05:00Coram Deo said "And I wonder where they got t...Coram Deo said "<b>And I wonder where they got the idea from...</b>"<br /><br />See my original comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-81425666125612995162010-11-18T02:12:31.706-05:002010-11-18T02:12:31.706-05:00This "argument" from finitude is a juven...This "argument" from finitude is a juvenile canard. My life is meaningful to me right now. Who can refute that? Who is asserting any more or less than that?<br /><br />Steve said:<br /><br /><i>But if it's all based on wishful thinking, wouldn't it be more efficient to wish away hell and stipulate a Muslim-style harem in the sky?</i><br /><br />You tell us--if Christianity isn't wish fulfillment, what do you personally wish for, Steve, that it leaves unfulfilled? I doubt you wish away hell because it's abundantly clear how much you enjoy condemning people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19761423096171887232010-11-17T23:03:29.915-05:002010-11-17T23:03:29.915-05:00Yup, and the Greek, Romans, Egyptians, Babylonians...<i>Yup, and the Greek, Romans, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc... etc... had variations as well.</i><br /><br />And I wonder where they got the idea from, and where their predecessors got it from, and their predecessors predecessors? <br /><br />Hmmmm...<br /><br />Prolly goes all the way back to the garden, or thereabouts.<br /><br />It must be frustrating for anti-theists to keep running into the One true and living God of Christian theism all over the place. It's like He's everywhere or something!<br /><br />In Him,<br />CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6612496467676478592010-11-17T21:24:17.132-05:002010-11-17T21:24:17.132-05:00Yup, and the Greek, Romans, Egyptians, Babylonians...Yup, and the Greek, Romans, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc... etc... had variations as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-43898359738758933432010-11-17T21:21:35.324-05:002010-11-17T21:21:35.324-05:00So you admit that pre-Christian Jews already belie...So you admit that pre-Christian Jews already believed in heaven and hell.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10301799605620983062010-11-17T21:13:58.785-05:002010-11-17T21:13:58.785-05:00Steve, obviously this was all invented long before...Steve, obviously this was all invented long before Christianity existed. Christianity wasn't born in a vacuum, it worked with what came before.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com