tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6865575493520155326..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: 70 weeksRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-77247213146731865422014-10-19T14:36:51.872-04:002014-10-19T14:36:51.872-04:00i) You assert that "the end" refers to t...i) You assert that "the end" refers to the end of the age and Christ's coming. However, Robert Stein argues that "the most natural referent to 'the end' in the expression 'the end is still to come' (Mk 13:7) is the destruction of the [Herodian] temple, which is the question of the disciples (Mk 13:4) that Jesus is answering in Mk 13:5-23." Jesus, the Temple, and the Coming Son of Man, 79.<br /><br />You're free to disagree, but it's not as if your explanation is obviously right and his is obviously wrong. <br /><br />i) The first question of the disciples wasn't simply a "when" question but a "what" question in reference to the 2nd Temple. Mt 24:3 refers back to vv1-2: "Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, 'You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.'"<br /><br />That's the context. <br /><br />"Actually Jesus did also answer 'when' the stones would be toppled also: armies surrounding and embankment (Lk. 19.41-44 and Lk. 21.20-24)."<br /><br />i) Which uses the language of siege warfare. Ground troops besieging fortified cities. That makes sense in a 1C context. <br /><br />It makes no sense in a modern setting. You can't just project that antiquated picture into the far future unless you update military technology. The invention of the cannon already rendered fortified cities obsolete–not to mention the advent of bombers, attack helicopters, cruise missiles, predator drones, &c. <br /><br />ii) What makes you think the "times of the gentiles" can't refer to the church age. Historically, gentiles have in fact been dominant during the church age. So why assume that must refer to the distant future?<br /><br />iii) You're equivocating on "everlasting righteousness." That can have its *inception* in the 1C.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7603331113725696772014-10-19T14:36:03.916-04:002014-10-19T14:36:03.916-04:00i) You're *asserting* that Mt 24:15 refers to ...i) You're *asserting* that Mt 24:15 refers to the third (millennial) temple, but you have yet to show how you derive that from either Matthew or Daniel.<br /><br />ii) Once you admit that Antiochus was a type of the Antichrist, that doesn't select for any particular antitype, be it 1C or future. <br /><br />iii) Likewise, once you grant typology, why insist "there can only be one reference"? What makes you think typology can't involve a one-to-many correspondence?<br /><br />iv) *Asserting* that your interpretation of the 70 weeks is correct is unimpressive. There are many adjustable variables:<br /><br />a) What's the terminus ad quo of the decree?<br /><br />b) Was the decree a human decree (e.g. Cyrus, Artaxerxes) or a divine decree? That affects the timing. <br /><br />c) Are the weeks literal intervals, rounded intervals, or symbolic intervals?<br /><br />d) What's the relationship between seven sevens, sixty-two sevens, one seven, and mid-week? Is it literal or schematic? Is it continuous or interrupted? <br /><br />You can't just dictate that your interpretation is right. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-82290714579615630802014-10-18T19:58:53.101-04:002014-10-18T19:58:53.101-04:00Actually Jesus did also answer "when" th...Actually Jesus did also answer "when" the stones would be toppled also: armies surrounding and embankment (Lk. 19.41-44 and Lk. 21.20-24). The "Time of the Gentiles" is obviously not part of the "seventy weeks for your people". So the cluster of events that affects the Jews is at the end of the "Times of the Gentiles" and marks the beginning of the 70th week. The realization of "everlasting righteousness" is clearly after the 70th week.Alex Krausehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14906958553755021247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68998970269122735252014-10-18T17:42:55.093-04:002014-10-18T17:42:55.093-04:00In regard to the Third Temple reference: “So when ...In regard to the Third Temple reference: “So when you see the abomination of desolation—spoken about by Daniel the prophet—standing in the holy place (let the reader understand) [Mt. 24.15]. The "holy place' is the reference to the third temple. This was clearly future of which the previous Antiochus Epiphanes one was typical.<br />So what if Dan. 9 is contested? There is only one correct way to view it in the end, it can't be many ways, it can only be one reference. I'm saying the futurist (PreMil) takes into account all the other references to Daniel's prophecies (including the 70 weeks, but not limited to only ch.9) better than competing views.Alex Krausehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14906958553755021247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73674365366683313862014-10-18T16:28:16.295-04:002014-10-18T16:28:16.295-04:00The End: the end of the age and Christ's comin...The End: the end of the age and Christ's coming (Mt. 24.3). Jesus doesn't answer the "when" question in regard to the stones being toppled. He only answers the 2nd coming question so as to be crystal clear that the explicit OT prophecies will be fulfilled. The first coming prophecy was mostly implicit (sacrificial system) while the Day of the Lord was overt in the OT. The disciples were wondering about The Day of the Lord.Alex Krausehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14906958553755021247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86511729858001032142014-10-18T15:28:56.808-04:002014-10-18T15:28:56.808-04:00One of the exegetical issues is what "the end...One of the exegetical issues is what "the end" refers to in context. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-57697842716144078482014-10-18T15:20:47.872-04:002014-10-18T15:20:47.872-04:00i) To begin with, you need to avoid a false antith...i) To begin with, you need to avoid a false antithesis. It's not a forced option between either being about the destruction of the 2nd temple or the future coming of Christ. It can be both. Indeed, the disciples pose both questions. <br /><br />ii) The lead-in is explicitly about the destruction of the 2nd temple. That's one frame of reference. <br /><br />iii) If "presumably a third temple is in view" "if you read Mt 24," then show where that's in view in Mt 24. <br /><br />iv) You're propping up your interpretation of Mt 24 by appeal to your interpretation of 2 Thes 2. But that begs the question. And, once again, it posits a false antithesis between past and future events. Among other things, that disregards typology–which is both past and future. <br /><br />v) Likewise, the interpretation of Daniel's 70-week prophecy is highly contested. You can't just stipulate your preferred interpretation of Dan 9 to leverage your preferred interpretation of Mt 24. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50448256527923070982014-10-18T14:28:24.525-04:002014-10-18T14:28:24.525-04:00If you read Mt. 24 again you will see the frame of...If you read Mt. 24 again you will see the frame of reference is Christ second coming and "the end". it is not speaking about the 2nd temple destruction. Presumably a third temple is in view. The 70th week is divided up into 2 periods of 3.5 years and deals with the ethnic Jewish nation according to the text of Daniel.<br />Also, according to Lev. 23 the festivals were "the times of The Lord". Both Passover and Pentecost have been fulfilled but the autumn feast/fast cluster has not. They include wrath: Trumpets, Yom Kippur: Day of the Lord, Sukkot: 4th Temple Millenium all with a focus on ethnic Israel. 2Thess. 2 speaks of these very events as future beyond the 2nd temple destruction. In no way was 2Thess. ever fulfilled with the end of the 2nd Temple.Alex Krausehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14906958553755021247noreply@blogger.com