tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6758863713100816592..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Perseverance and suicideRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14298231871190834152013-04-19T20:39:04.656-04:002013-04-19T20:39:04.656-04:00Spiritual presumption and the assurance of salvati...Spiritual presumption and the assurance of salvation are in tension. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-2729204645567212182013-04-18T20:52:57.721-04:002013-04-18T20:52:57.721-04:00heineous = heinous
tendancy = tendency heineous = heinous <br />tendancy = tendency ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-53826279170856292212013-04-18T20:48:32.009-04:002013-04-18T20:48:32.009-04:00I'll be trying to be faithful to Calvinist the...I'll be <i>trying</i> to be faithful to Calvinist theology, though I welcome correction.<br /><br />1. While it's possible to attain the Holy Spirit given "infallible assurance of faith" that the WCF <a href="http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XVIII.html" rel="nofollow">talks about</a>, that infallible assurance is not of the essence of faith. In other words, you can be genuinely saved even if you don't possess it or even have doubts about your salvation. <br /><br />2. Having said that, it's possible to be deceived about one's salvation [i.e. gracious status] because of sinful self-deception through an incorrect application of right theology, or consistent application of wrong theology to oneself.<br /><br />3. The Bible clearly teaches that while on earth, Christians will never reach a state of perfected sanctification such that they will continue to live lives tainted with sin to some degree or another [cf. Rom. 7; Jam. 3:2; 1 John 1:8-10; John 13:9-10; Luke 11:3-4 etc.]. <br /><br />4. While it's true that every sin (no matter how small) is deserving of hell, it is NOT the case that all sins are therefore equally heineous. Some sins *are* worse than others.<br /><br />5. Apart from intentional and persistent apostasy that lasts till death, there is no sin (no matter how great) that God cannot forgive upon repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.<br /><br />6. Because of #3, every Christian will die with some sin in their life (be it ever so small).<br /><br />7. Because Christians have the Holy Spirit working in their lives, there will be a tendancy for them to shun more readily the greater (i.e. worse) sins because of the convicting and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />8. While not all self-killing is self-murder, intentional and premeditated suicide is self-murder. Since murder is a very serious sin and generally a sign of non-regeneration [1 John 3:15], the likelihood of anyone being genuinely regenerate and saved who commits suicide will be lower than someone who died with lesser sins (say occasional gluttony). Such a person may have been self-deceived into thinking he or she was genuinely saved [per #2 above].<br /><br />Again, I am NOT saying that all suicides go to hell. I will not give percentages because that can give false hope and encourage some to contemplate as an option, or even attempt suicide. In cases where someone has successfully committed suicide, we should leave it in the hands of a sovereign, just, and YES merciful God who will never judge unjustly.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62186426224203516682013-04-18T11:07:34.802-04:002013-04-18T11:07:34.802-04:00I assume you’re referring to the line, “The doctri...I assume you’re referring to the line, “The doctrine of perseverance is not a license to take your life with impunity. Not a contingency plan. That’s very presumptuous.”<br /><br />I’m not suggesting a believer should presume that he has license to commit suicide. But my question remains, If you know you are a believer, why isn’t suicide a guarantee of salvation?<br />Distant Cousinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05765621905219905064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58749874018061910252013-04-18T10:31:33.472-04:002013-04-18T10:31:33.472-04:00You missed what I said about presumption. You missed what I said about presumption. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28769060153906693862013-04-18T09:42:47.801-04:002013-04-18T09:42:47.801-04:00“Although suicide is not a guarantee of damnation,...“Although suicide is not a guarantee of damnation, suicide is not a guarantee of salvation. It’s a fearful thing to take your own life.”<br /><br />If you know you are a believer, why isn’t suicide a guarantee of salvation?<br />Distant Cousinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05765621905219905064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45377363657901659092013-04-17T13:51:10.480-04:002013-04-17T13:51:10.480-04:00Thanks for your response, Steve.Thanks for your response, Steve.Matheteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13527032591499860552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7734986610047365842013-04-17T12:43:32.534-04:002013-04-17T12:43:32.534-04:00We need to distinguish between genuine mental illn...We need to distinguish between genuine mental illness and the "insanity defense," especially "temporary insanity." stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45431227286493629502013-04-17T11:41:38.341-04:002013-04-17T11:41:38.341-04:00Hello Steve,
A question, if I may - in this post,...Hello Steve,<br /><br />A question, if I may - in this post, you speak of the diminishing of responsibility with regard to mental illness:<br /><br />"Likewise, if someone commits suicide because he is mentally ill, we usually consider that to be an extenuating circumstances or even an exculpatory circumstance. He was in a state of diminished responsibility."<br /><br />You seem to speak as if some acts done in a state of mental illness are exculpatory, but in a previous (like, really previous) post, you criticize the idea:<br /><br />"If you’re so evil that you can’t tell the difference between good and evil, then you can cop a plea to insanity and get off the hook.<br /><br />Not to mention the all-purpose, temporary insanity defense. The Twinkies made me do it!"<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/04/adversus-reppertus.html<br /><br />I realize the original post was in the context of Arminianism, but are there contexts where you think severe mental illness really does diminish responsibility?Matheteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13527032591499860552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-80781411087863659672013-04-17T09:18:14.664-04:002013-04-17T09:18:14.664-04:00For the past year and 5 months (or so) Wayne Grude...For the past year and 5 months (or so) Wayne Grudem has been teaching on Christian Ethics and he's been slowly going through the 10 Commandments. It so happens that he's been dealing with the 6th Commandment (Thou Shalt Not Murder) since 12/2/12. So far there have been 13 lessons on the 6th Commandment. It so happens that he had to speak on the topic of suicide 2 days after the tragic suicide of Rick Warren's son. I recommend people listen to the lesson because of the testimonies and advice of the Christian audience who have been affected by suicide in their families. One even shares how he contemplated suicide in the past and how he got help.<br /><br />One can access the lesson <a href="http://scottsdalebible.com/assets/audio/christian-essentials/20130407WGrudem.mp3" rel="nofollow">HERE</a><br /><br />The the entire ongoing series can be accessed at this link: <a href="http://www.christianessentialssbc.com/messages/" rel="nofollow">http://www.christianessentialssbc.com/messages/</a><br /><br />Just click on the Christian Ethics book picture.<br /><br />ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26523370502832012322013-04-17T09:00:32.183-04:002013-04-17T09:00:32.183-04:00I second that.I second that.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47165543222495774342013-04-17T06:24:19.830-04:002013-04-17T06:24:19.830-04:00Steve, I always appreciate the combination of clea...Steve, I always appreciate the combination of clear thinking and compassion you bring to these types of things. You may be an intellectual superhero, but you're always a Christian intellectual superhero first!John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39891380850932790152013-04-17T02:04:06.590-04:002013-04-17T02:04:06.590-04:00Suppose Christianity is illegal in a particular co...<i>Suppose Christianity is illegal in a particular country. There’s an underground church movement. This consists of semi-autonomous cell-groups.</i><br /><br />Sadly, this is already the case in many countries (as we all know). I hope this doesn't happen to the church in North America. But with all the things going on socially, politically, legally, and economically, it might well happen.<br /><br />In an email by Hugh Ross he wrote:<br /><br />QUOTE:<br />I’ve just finished reading a sobering and challenging book by pastor and journalist John S. Dickerson. This book, <i>The Great Evangelical Recession</i>, sounds a jarring alarm. If we ignore it, the church in North America is, in Dickerson’s words, heading for a crash.<br /><br />Because so few Christians are leading other adults to faith in Christ, our numbers are declining. Even the mega-churches’ growth comes primarily from transfers rather than from adding new believers.<br /><br />The painful truth must be faced: <b>disciple-making is not keeping pace with population growth</b> in North America, and it doesn’t take a math genius to grasp what the numbers mean for our future.<br />END QUOTE [bold text original]ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62485054013283331562013-04-17T01:46:34.766-04:002013-04-17T01:46:34.766-04:00Another good article I read was:
Is Suicide the U...Another good article I read was:<br /><br />Is Suicide the Unpardonable Sin? by Sam Storms<br /><a href="http://www.samstorms.com/enjoying-god-blog/post/is-suicide-the-unpardonable-sin" rel="nofollow">http://www.samstorms.com/enjoying-god-blog/post/is-suicide-the-unpardonable-sin</a>ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1892789354972727012013-04-17T01:27:12.808-04:002013-04-17T01:27:12.808-04:00WOW! Great post!
When I originally read that quot...WOW! Great post!<br /><br />When I originally read that quote of Rick Warren's son I wished someone in the Christian world would write a balanced and succinct article that would cover the various permutations of this issue and how to address them. That way I (and anyone else) could recommend it whenever the topic of suicide comes up. <b>This is definitely that article! </b><br /><br />An article/blog like this is absolutely NEEDED to prevent people from taking Rick Warren's son's statement and using it to justify attempted suicide. I mean, demons will use that quote to tempt people to commit suicide.<br /><br />I suspect other Christian bloggers have addressed this issue sufficiently as well, but I bet few (if any) have done it like this blog. That is, being able to touch all the major bases which usually aren't addressed or even thought of/considered.<br /><br />I definitely believe that some suicides end up in heaven. Though, I suspect it's a much lower percentage than most Christians think. Suicide is murder, even if it's <i>self</i>-murder; and Scripture says the following about murderers.<br /><br />"...and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." - 1 John 3:15<br /><br />I take it from this passage that, generally speaking, murderers cannot be regenerate. However, all the qualifications I would want to make have been made by Steve in this post. <br /><br />Thanks for the blog Steve. I hope many other Christians reading this blog of yours will share its link with as many people as possible (whenever it's appropriate). It deserves wide distribution.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.com