tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6263731258703920600..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Theological homophobiaRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86688004677401192542011-01-24T14:19:12.913-05:002011-01-24T14:19:12.913-05:00Ron said: "Will likely buy this book. Or I co...Ron said: <b>"Will likely buy this book. Or I could trade you for my Geisler Systematic Theology :)"</b><br /><br />Nice. Thanks, but frankly<br />, Geisler's work interests me little. :Pἐκκλησίαhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011648681141436328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-9185482471259968302011-01-22T10:06:21.456-05:002011-01-22T10:06:21.456-05:00>Steve, after reading your link, I think it is ...>Steve, after reading your link, I think it is likely Geisler made the comments being attributed to him.<br /><br />Here Ekklesia concedes that he probably jumped the gun here. A generous admission. Well done, Ekklesia! <br /><br />Yet, I am not so generous with Dr. Geisler as Steve was. Dr. Geisler does in fact have theological homophobia. <br />As do I. And I'm not too humble to admit it.<br /><br />>Peter, I agree.. This is where I'd engage Geisler.<br /><br />Geisler does not engage in debates with Christians. it has been a long-held policy of his. <br /><br />>If Geisler is trying to say that Calvinists are wrong to see their theology as the correct one, I'd disagree... <br /><br />Geisler has long been consistent in that position. And incidentally, he prefers to label Calvinists as Determinists. A little less incendiary, perhaps. And more consistent with his philosophical bent.<br /><br />>However if Geisler is trying to say that Calvinists are wrong to see their theology as supreme, superior, or exclusive (essentially lacking humility), I'd agree.<br /><br />Ekklesia, if I didn't actually see my theology as supreme, superior or exclusive--- why wouldn't I abandon it?<br />And doesn't Geisler actually see his own Calminianism as supreme, superior and exclusive?<br /><br /><br />>The reason I'd agree is this: Basically, all genuine believers, the elect, be they Calvinist or not, do the best they can theologically given the Gospel Christ gave us. <br /><br />That's a very Determinist position my non-Calvinist brother :)<br /><br />>But this criticism is just as true of the theology I hold, since I too possess incomplete knowledge.<br /><br />But I thought the issue was about correct knowledge, Ekklesia- not about incomplete knowledge...<br /><br />>Here is an example of how ALL our theology has been flawed: <br /><br />A bit much hyperbole here, Ekklesia.<br />Thanks for the link, though.<br />Am largely in agreement with this book. Despite it's disagreement with Kaiser, Longman, Hurtado etc.<br />And despite its racist implications.<br /><br />Will likely buy this book. Or I could trade you for my Geisler Systematic Theology :)Ron Van Brenkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15623171051016737306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32588547835154439762011-01-21T22:47:00.743-05:002011-01-21T22:47:00.743-05:00@Ekklesia: I still don't get it, homie - now y...@Ekklesia: I still don't get it, homie - now you've got me <i>really</i> confused. Please excuse me. I'll be returning to my bigoted ubercalvinist stupor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-12636689994628305272011-01-21T22:29:08.758-05:002011-01-21T22:29:08.758-05:00Aztexan said: "Geisler's "racism&quo...Aztexan said: <b>"Geisler's "racism" crack is a commentary on how Calvinists allegedly see ourselves in relation to the non-elect, NOT how we appraise the superior correctness of our tradition in comparison to other Christian traditions."</b><br /><br />Not if you take Geisler's use of 'elect' on Calvinistic terms. Remember, though you may not agree, Geisler sees himself a Calvinist, and he's well known for criticising what hell calls 'extreme Calvinists'.<br /><br />Accordingly, and in my opinion, this is exactly why Geisler's comments can be taken to be appraising the superior correctness of the Calvinist tradition against other Christian traditions.<br /><br />But again, this is the danger of using excessively emotive language - it cuts both ways.<br /><br />(PS its too bad my responses to Steve's <b>ad hominem</b> keep disappearing).ἐκκλησίαhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011648681141436328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-85981198752477636392011-01-21T22:18:23.603-05:002011-01-21T22:18:23.603-05:00@Matt: Phew! I had hoped I wasn't somehow off ...@Matt: Phew! I had hoped I wasn't somehow off base in my reading of the quote. There's being charitable, and then there's being <i>obtuse</i>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-2346040107080161782011-01-21T21:53:57.712-05:002011-01-21T21:53:57.712-05:00"Ekk, I don't know how the above can reas..."Ekk, I don't know how the above can reasonably be taken any way other than how I take it. How do you calculate that "...only loved the elect and only died for the elect...that's some kind of theological racism" somehow refers to Reformed snobbery toward other Christian doctrinal systems? Geisler's "racism" crack is a commentary on how Calvinists allegedly see ourselves in relation to the non-elect, NOT how we appraise the superior correctness of our tradition in comparison to other Christian traditions."<br /><br />EXACTLY. You hit the nail on the head, aztexan.Prince Asbelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06084817183123423099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10931812848962881942011-01-21T20:02:41.908-05:002011-01-21T20:02:41.908-05:00True, the choice argument doesn't have the sam...True, the choice argument doesn't have the same purchase in Calvinism that it has in freewill theism vis-a-vis homosexuality.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10714192423646879972011-01-21T20:01:16.204-05:002011-01-21T20:01:16.204-05:00To be a homosexual is not, per se, a sign of repro...To be a homosexual is not, per se, a sign of reprobation. There are elect homosexuals whom God will save. But in saving them, he also saves them from their homosexual addiction. <br /><br />They can't live and die homosexual. At some point there has to be basic change. <br /><br />The signs of election are no different than the signs of what it is to be a true believer. That experience isn't unique to Calvinism. But Calvinism has a different way of grounding salvation.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-14524669444883871922011-01-21T19:57:59.740-05:002011-01-21T19:57:59.740-05:00Victor, they choose sodomy because they are reprob...Victor, they choose sodomy because they are reprobate, not vice versa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-83954726891755214222011-01-21T19:44:47.709-05:002011-01-21T19:44:47.709-05:00As I understand it, many Calvinists believe that w...As I understand it, many Calvinists believe that we can have some signs, in the course of our lives, that we are amongst the elect. One sign that you might be a reprobate, surely, would be the fact that you are gay. Right? <br /><br />I suppose Calvinists don't have so much at stake in arguing the homosexual orientation is chosen.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68601164532715684412011-01-21T19:11:53.725-05:002011-01-21T19:11:53.725-05:00Steve wrote: >>Yes, it's humbled me as w...Steve wrote: >>Yes, it's humbled me as well. In fact, if we had a humility contest, I bet you that I'd score twice as humble as you.<<<br /><br />I've no doubt I'm the world's LEAST humble man. In fact, I'm sure the next-most arrogant wretch on Earth must be at least 10 times more humble than I, chief of braggarts. Yes, when the Lord is giving rewards for humility, I'll be dead-last - perhaps least in the whole Kingdom. And, of course, my confessing this wickedness of mine shall in nowise score me ironic points for humility; no, there's nothing I can do but confess that ALL of you great men of God will have heavenly mansions and crowns immeasurably greater than mine, for I am a miserably proud, haughty fool - by far the least of God's elect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44619648538668257022011-01-21T19:04:01.527-05:002011-01-21T19:04:01.527-05:00Why can't everyone be humble like me? That'...Why can't everyone be humble like me? That's my question. It's humbling just to mediate on how humble I am. I spend at least 4 hours a day in a lotus position, staring at the mirror, to cultivate my humility.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-65693778497930197862011-01-21T18:56:00.926-05:002011-01-21T18:56:00.926-05:00Prideful humility.
Pharisees prayed long prayers ...Prideful humility.<br /><br />Pharisees prayed long prayers in street corners so that people could see how pious they were, boastful and prideful of their prayerfulness.<br /><br />Now we have modern day Pharisees touting and proclaiming their humility so that people could see and know how pious they are, boastful and prideful of their great show of humility.<br /><br />Bleah.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5354889475749075742011-01-21T18:50:45.222-05:002011-01-21T18:50:45.222-05:00BRIAN SAID:
"This whole conversation has mad...BRIAN SAID:<br /><br />"This whole conversation has made me feel more intellectually humble...oh wait! A guy just can't win around here."<br /><br />Yes, it's humbled me as well. In fact, if we had a humility contest, I bet you that I'd score twice as humble as you.<br /><br />Pssst! Just between you and me, I think I'm three times as humble as you are, but it would be immodest of me to say so in public, so that will be our little secret. :-)stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1225406958837481262011-01-21T17:04:04.898-05:002011-01-21T17:04:04.898-05:00GEISLER: "These people [meanie Calvinists] te...GEISLER: "These people [meanie Calvinists] teach that Christ only loved the elect and only died for the elect. And I think that's some kind of theological racism."<br /><br />Ekk, I don't know how the above can reasonably be taken any way other than how I take it. How do you calculate that "...only loved the elect and only died for the elect...that's some kind of theological racism" somehow refers to Reformed snobbery toward other Christian doctrinal systems? Geisler's "racism" crack is a commentary on how Calvinists allegedly see <i><b>ourselves</b></i> in relation to the non-elect, NOT how we appraise the superior <i>correctness of our <b>tradition</b></i> in comparison to other Christian traditions.<br /><br />Unless I'm <i>completely</i> missing something big here... *scratching head*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-48750288292444252932011-01-21T17:03:15.102-05:002011-01-21T17:03:15.102-05:00This whole conversation has made me feel more inte...This whole conversation has made me feel more intellectually humble...oh wait! A guy just can't win around here.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996214961317651814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50300206682443089702011-01-21T16:45:51.204-05:002011-01-21T16:45:51.204-05:00aztexan said: "His analogy runs something lik...aztexan said: <b>"His analogy runs something like: "Calvinists are to the reprobate as skinheads are to blacks or jews."</b><br /><br />Aztexan, If I saw what you are seeing, I'd also be highly offended, but that's not how I took his use of the word "racism".<br /><br />I think Peter Pike has it right. If we were to engage his comment in good faith, we have to confront him on what he means by "theological racism".ἐκκλησίαhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011648681141436328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7465954008435297112011-01-21T16:29:38.102-05:002011-01-21T16:29:38.102-05:00Ekklesia wrote: >>If Geisler is trying to sa...Ekklesia wrote: >>If Geisler is trying to say that Calvinists are wrong to see their theology as the correct one, I'd disagree since every Christian ought to search after true 'Christ-given' orthodoxy and believe it it to be true, or discard it.<br /><br />However if Geisler is trying to say that Calvinist are wrong to see their theology as supreme, superior, or exclusive (essentially lacking humility), I'd agree.<<<br /><br />Ekk, did you <i>read</i> the quote? Geisler was referring to neither of your bizarre options. His analogy runs something like: "Calvinists are to the reprobate as skinheads are to blacks or jews."<br /><br />That settled, Geisler's remark is akin to a Black Panther saying, "Those damn Tea Party honkies are nothing but a bunch of bigoted white, straight-haired, blue-eyed crackers!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86110595351088167732011-01-21T16:00:13.898-05:002011-01-21T16:00:13.898-05:00"What we're getting from you is spiritual...<i>"What we're getting from you is spiritual pride disguised as spiritual humility. That's a dangerous combination, because it reflects a degree of self-deception on your part. You'd only be entitled to make these lofoty disclaimers if you enjoyed the objectivity which your disclaimers deny. <br /><br />You need to put your humility badge in a box with a few rocks, then toss it in the river. True modesty doesn't flaunt its modesty. True modesty doesn't draw invidious comparisons between the mock humility of the speaker and the benighted targets of his unctuous little hortations."</i><br /><br />Whoa! That's pretty good.<br /><br />This "Dr. Gregory House Diagnosis" can also be applied to many liberals and emergers who tout their faux humility which blinds them to their own judgmental pharaseeism.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-4744012706335867442011-01-21T15:36:33.776-05:002011-01-21T15:36:33.776-05:00"..Geisler is guilty of theological homophobi..."..Geisler is guilty of theological homophobia–"<br /><br />That made me smile. Thanks.<br /><br />Geisler says Faith comes before salvation, according to Ephesians 2:8 period. And he does gives jabs to all who believe the 5 points. He calls anyone who believes this way as "extreme".<br /><br />Thanks for the great thoughts.<br />Have a Spirit-filled Lord's day.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64561654511783440322011-01-21T15:12:08.850-05:002011-01-21T15:12:08.850-05:00First of all, the "theological racist" a...First of all, the "theological racist" assertion by Geisler should be completely embarrassing upon further reflection.<br /><br />God chose a single nation out of all the people of the earth to be His people. Was He theologically racist?Saint and Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14166699860672840738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67780621926645106372011-01-21T14:52:00.670-05:002011-01-21T14:52:00.670-05:00ἘΚΚΛΗΣΊΑ SAID:
"Steve, you've really not...ἘΚΚΛΗΣΊΑ SAID:<br /><br />"Steve, you've really not presenting a counter argument for me to consider, to the claim you're falsely attributing an analogy to Geisler that is in fact, yours."<br /><br />Your denial is just a repetitious assertion. Hence, it merits no response. Pull your own load.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-72396302253796861182011-01-21T14:47:10.616-05:002011-01-21T14:47:10.616-05:00ἘΚΚΛΗΣΊΑ SAID:
"Until Christ returns, our do...ἘΚΚΛΗΣΊΑ SAID:<br /><br />"Until Christ returns, our doctrine will not be complete, though it may contain few errors. So then, there is room for humility in dealing with fellow believers at least."<br /><br />Yes, that's your shtick. We've heard all that before.<br /><br />Of course, the statement is self-refuting since your mock humility is predicated on your eschatology. But if you applied your mock humility to your eschatological premise, you'd lose the supporting argument which undergirds your mock humility.<br /><br />What we're getting from you is spiritual pride disguised as spiritual humility. That's a dangerous combination, because it reflects a degree of self-deception on your part. You'd only be entitled to make these lofoty disclaimers if you enjoyed the objectivity which your disclaimers deny. <br /><br />You need to put your humility badge in a box with a few rocks, then toss it in the river. True modesty doesn't flaunt its modesty. True modesty doesn't draw invidious comparisons between the mock humility of the speaker and the benighted targets of his unctuous little hortations.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-35665858961777703922011-01-21T14:45:38.307-05:002011-01-21T14:45:38.307-05:00Justin you raise a good point. There is a God hon...Justin you raise a good point. There is a God honouring way of objecting to those, with whom we disagree.<br /><br />Steve, you've really not presenting a counter argument for me to consider, to the claim you're falsely attributing an analogy to Geisler that is in fact, yours.<br /><br />Present one and Ill respond or concede.ἐκκλησίαhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011648681141436328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-21995774717955817112011-01-21T14:37:08.718-05:002011-01-21T14:37:08.718-05:00ἘΚΚΛΗΣΊΑ SAID:
"If they are both flawed anal...ἘΚΚΛΗΣΊΑ SAID:<br /><br />"If they are both flawed analogies, they are not flawed for the reasons you assert."<br /><br />You keep repeating the same tendentious stipulation as if that's a counterargument to my argument. It's not.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.com