tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6085277146012402192..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Off with their heads!Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-35778903627465133142011-02-09T18:52:59.065-05:002011-02-09T18:52:59.065-05:00In addition to what Sean and Peter have said, from...In addition to what Sean and Peter have said, from now on we can assume that David will be satisfied if we reply to his objections to Christianity the same way he's responded to Peter's comments. On the issue of slavery, for example, we can say, "I find the Argument from Slavery to be a rather weak one. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point."<br /><br />Of course, if David thought such a response was sufficient, why did he post about the slavery issue to begin with? We could have "agreed to disagree" without any posts from David. I suspect that David posted his objections because he <i>isn't</i> satisfied with the sort of response he gave Peter. He's satisfied with giving that response, when he wants to be evasive, but not with getting it. It's a double standard, and we get that from a lot of the skeptics who post here.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-13385951106640464102011-02-09T12:29:52.040-05:002011-02-09T12:29:52.040-05:00David said:
---
I find the Argument from Morality ...David said:<br />---<br />I find the Argument from Morality to be a rather weak one. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. :)<br />---<br /><br />I didn't give you the Argument from Morality. *YOU* are the one making moral claims. I merely told you that you have to establish them. At no point did I make any argument that only Christianity could establish morality.<br /><br />So your reading comprehension is as bad as your philosophy.<br /><br />Be that as it may, you don't get to make pronouncements without upholding your burden of proof. So you either establish your basis for morality such that slavery is objectively wrong, or you can shut up. Those are your only options here.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-37238488222149803402011-02-09T11:09:09.690-05:002011-02-09T11:09:09.690-05:00Slavery in the ancient world was meant for the ben...Slavery in the ancient world was meant for the benefit of the poor and not their exploitation. It was also notably not ideal. So what? The goal was not to use the Law to create Utopia.<br /><br />Of course with Loftus, let's be fair now. Why should he let a little thing like truth get in the way of an argument?Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16175830373964472006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62368962108749376522011-02-09T11:05:13.966-05:002011-02-09T11:05:13.966-05:00Other "natural" things that go on in the...Other "natural" things that go on in the animal world include cannibalism (e.g. eating one's own offspring), killing a mate after mating, killing or mutilating the genitals of one's rivals, "theft" (e.g. one dog "stealing" another dog's bones), eating one's own feces, and a whole bunch of other things.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-92049088653872599562011-02-09T10:45:44.307-05:002011-02-09T10:45:44.307-05:00In my own understanding of the slavery issue, I ha...In my own understanding of the slavery issue, I have found Glenn Miller's article at the Christian Thinktank to be helpful:<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow">Slavery in the Bible</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-37636295541802855472011-02-09T10:13:36.689-05:002011-02-09T10:13:36.689-05:00"I find the Argument from Morality to be a ra..."I find the Argument from Morality to be a rather weak one. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. :)"<br /><br /><br />Translation: "I'm not going to tell you why you should treat my moral preferences as any more binding than my preferences in ice cream toppings, but I will keep making moral pronouncements and expecting you to treat them as binding upon your God."Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00219208041067250320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-9988572874135977802011-02-09T08:42:21.949-05:002011-02-09T08:42:21.949-05:00If atheism were true, what would be so wrong with ...If atheism were true, what would be so wrong with slavery? Hey, if homosexuality is natural because it happens in the animal world, then slavery is natural too. <br /><br /><br />"SLAVERY ON SIX LEGS<br /><br />Some ant species make slaves of others. Those in the subfamily Formicinae will go out and raid the nests of other species nearby, and steal their eggs and pupae. These are taken home, when the resulting young are raised as slaves, having to do all the foraging, cleaning and babysitting for their masters."<br />http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/wild-things-the-weirdest-facts-from-the-animal-kingdom-418659.htmlANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-65748909852851302962011-02-09T06:33:55.443-05:002011-02-09T06:33:55.443-05:00"Except that unless you agree to objective mo..."Except that unless you agree to objective morality..."<br /><br />I find the Argument from Morality to be a rather weak one. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. :)Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01181354327293762376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-16759873220785537532011-02-09T03:25:18.119-05:002011-02-09T03:25:18.119-05:00David said:
---
Slavery is moral bankruptcy
---
E...David said:<br />---<br />Slavery is moral bankruptcy<br />---<br /><br />Except that unless you agree to objective morality, you're complaining that someone went bankrupt with Monopoly money.<br /><br />By what basis can you make any moral determinations? I don't care *that* you do, you need to justify *why* you do. Until you do so, it makes little sense to moralize to anyone. It would be like you arguing that anyone's system of logic that rejects unicorns being gray is bankrupt. Who gives a fig?Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39119363219047605622011-02-08T23:55:25.530-05:002011-02-08T23:55:25.530-05:00Of course the great irony here is that Loftus does...Of course the great irony here is that Loftus doesn't realize that <b><i>he is a slave</i></b>!<br /><br />He's a slave to sin, chained to it and mastered by it. He is in utter bondage, but is too blind to see it thinking himself "free".<br /><br />Such a sad fool...<br /><br />In Christ,<br />CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26855093945744359422011-02-08T23:43:20.855-05:002011-02-08T23:43:20.855-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-29724919470079792102011-02-08T20:13:41.430-05:002011-02-08T20:13:41.430-05:00"If the price of these things was freedom, th..."If the price of these things was freedom, then yes. It would be wrong. I'd rather be a free pauper than a pampered slave." -David<br /><br />The heart of the one buying the slaves is to release them from being treated like animals. His heart tells him, "If I leave them to this cruel taskmaster, then these people will suffered terribly. I can relieve their pain and restore some dignity.<br /><br />And perhaps the government of the land will one day in the near future see the cruelty of slavery, and will bring and end to it completely."donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-202244399190661562011-02-08T19:55:44.368-05:002011-02-08T19:55:44.368-05:00For those interested, here is an insightful articl...For those interested, here is an insightful article on slavery, especially the comments on 1Cor7:21:<br /><br />http://www.bible-researcher.com/slavery.htmlHenryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06242793531954844979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-70120536445412505782011-02-08T19:27:25.424-05:002011-02-08T19:27:25.424-05:00Matthew:
Situations like the one you describe wou...Matthew:<br /><br />Situations like the one you describe would present a difficult decision. I would argue, however, that a society that made such a choice necessary was a failed society. When the cost of feeding a hungry child, or caring for a sick loved one is freedom itself, then the foundations of that society are fundamentally flawed.<br /><br />Poverty CAN be a terrible limitation, but I would hazard to guess that people enslaved, in any era, would clamor for the choice.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01181354327293762376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73375022192909499842011-02-08T19:06:58.245-05:002011-02-08T19:06:58.245-05:00DAVID SAID:
"Sad truth is he is morally bett...DAVID SAID:<br /><br />"Sad truth is he is morally better than your god."<br /><br />Since John Loftus admitted to David Wood that he (Loftus) doesn't believe anything is intrinsically good or evil, then Loftus couldn't be intrinsically morally better than my God. <br /><br />And he can't say that slavery (of whatever variety) is intrinsically evil.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68722943083997332442011-02-08T18:52:01.311-05:002011-02-08T18:52:01.311-05:00David,
I haven't studied this issue enough to...David,<br /><br />I haven't studied this issue enough to have a strong stance, but I was wondering:<br /><br />What if someone values economic security over "freedom"?<br /><br />Doesn't being poor entail a certain restriction on the exercise of freedom? The impoverished generally have no practical freedom to pursue anything, even if they are not technically in legal bondage to a master.<br /><br />I note the issue of poverty, because if I had to choose between being a "slave" (as the term would be understood in the ANE) and a "freeman," the former entailing a good life of education and material security for both me and my family, with the latter entailing sickness, the inability to properly feed and cloth my children, living in a crime-ridden part of time, etc., the choice would actually be very difficult to make.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784922935749497931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-21499946328728978582011-02-08T18:11:10.542-05:002011-02-08T18:11:10.542-05:00donsands:
If the price of these things was freedo...donsands:<br /><br />If the price of these things was freedom, then yes. It would be wrong. I'd rather be a free pauper than a pampered slave.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01181354327293762376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-24955414787936623782011-02-08T17:15:00.762-05:002011-02-08T17:15:00.762-05:00"Slavery is moral bankruptcy" -David
Se..."Slavery is moral bankruptcy" -David<br /><br />Selling humans for $$$$$ is an abomination. How about if I buy 100 slaves, who were being treated like filthy dogs, and gave them food, and good clothes and loved them, and even gave them shelter.<br /><br />Would that be wrong?donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90014190727671667212011-02-08T17:09:31.808-05:002011-02-08T17:09:31.808-05:00Sad truth is he is morally better than your god. ...Sad truth is he is morally better than your god. <br /><br />Slavery is moral bankruptcy - even the 'oh, but it wasn't like the chattel slavery of the American south .... it was all warm and fuzzy and sorta like being a butler' type.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01181354327293762376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-21455936896525257592011-02-08T13:30:41.456-05:002011-02-08T13:30:41.456-05:00Nothing quite like watching atheists moralize.Nothing quite like watching atheists moralize.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-11004668944914441262011-02-08T12:35:30.792-05:002011-02-08T12:35:30.792-05:00Like everything else, 'slavery' is a word ...Like everything else, 'slavery' is a word that can be taken different ways, according to taste.<br /><br />Structurally, Roman slavery was different than American slavery. However, indentured servitude (of the Irish) in the Yankee north, was nearly indistinguishable from Roman slavery structurally.<br /><br />So do we say Roman slavery is <b>no different</b> than American slavery (of the South)? Or do we say indentured servitude <b>was</b> also slavery?<br /><br />If one's goal is find hypocrisy within Christianity, one has to apply the Biblical example (which was Roman) onto the American south's example (which was Christian example), even though it fits better with indentured servitude example of the Irish (in the North), than it does with the African American example (in the south).ἐκκλησίαhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011648681141436328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62937614988107416772011-02-08T10:36:12.833-05:002011-02-08T10:36:12.833-05:00Loftus is the gift that keeps on giving. In what h...Loftus is the gift that keeps on giving. In what has to be the single greatest, most unintentionally humorous, self-assessment I have ever come across, Loftus offers us these words about himself:<br /><br />"I specialize in the Big Picture. This is true and it's no joke. I gather as much of the relevant material as a mortal can possibly muster and try to make sense of it. Confound it though, all of the Big Picture specialists are gone. ;-) <br /><br />I know as much about the Big Picture (i.e., the forest) as you do about any one of the trees (or a species of tree in that forest. <br /><br />Do you understand this? Do you think this could make me more dangerous that any given specialist when it comes to the Christian faith, since I'm a Big Picture Specialist about all things Christian?"<br /><br />This is fantastic stuff. I was ready to consider it brilliant satire when I first saw this message appear on the Prosblogion. When somebody pointed out, however, that it was a parody of Loftus's own words -- which I've reproduced above -- it hits me that Loftus may just represent the zenith of self-parody.dogfreidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13751614375780546890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-70894581290887042082011-02-08T10:07:18.147-05:002011-02-08T10:07:18.147-05:00John begs to differ:
"Again, I am better tha...John begs to differ:<br /><br />"Again, I am better than your God, and I can prove this. I can prove it. I would have never allowed any human being to misunderstand that slavery is a complete abomination."<br /><br />He is so completely self-absorbed that he will never be dissuaded from his delusions of grandeur, short of regenerating grace.Nealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15030792638120558640noreply@blogger.com